   
Securing Sexuality is the podcast and conference promoting sex positive, science based, and secure interpersonal relationships. We give people tips for safer sex in a digital age. We help sextech innovators and toy designers produce safer products. And we educate mental health and medical professionals on these topics so they can better advise their clients. Securing Sexuality provides sex therapists with continuing education (CEs) for AASECT, SSTAR, and SASH around cyber sexuality and social media, and more.
Links from this week's episode: Sightline Security How to Make a Finsta - WikiHow 
From Victim to Advocate: Kelley Masata on Cybersecurity and Nonprofit Support
In today's digital age, cybersecurity has become an increasingly critical concern for individuals and organizations alike. With the rise of cyber threats and attacks, it is crucial to develop robust measures to protect sensitive data and ensure the integrity of online platforms. While technological advancements have certainly played a significant role in bolstering cybersecurity, the human element cannot be underestimated. Human empathy and support are essential components in the fight against cyber threats.
Cybersecurity is often associated with technological solutions, such as firewalls, antivirus software, and encryption algorithms. However, it is vital to recognize that humans are both the perpetrators and the victims of cyber threats. Cybercriminals exploit human vulnerabilities, such as curiosity, trust, and lack of awareness, to gain unauthorized access to systems and networks. On the other hand, individuals and organizations rely on human judgment and decision-making to implement effective cybersecurity measures. Kelley Masata, a renowned cybersecurity expert, has dedicated her career to understanding and addressing cyber threats. Through her personal experience, she has highlighted the significance of human empathy and support in the field of cybersecurity. Masata's journey in this field began when she fell victim to a devastating cyber attack that targeted her financial information. This incident stimulated her passion for cybersecurity and inspired her to make a difference by emphasizing the importance of human empathy and support. Empathy, the ability to understand and share another person's feelings, plays a crucial role in cybersecurity. By cultivating empathy, individuals can better understand the motivations and methods employed by cybercriminals, allowing them to develop more effective countermeasures. Moreover, empathy enables cybersecurity professionals to empathize with victims of cyber attacks, offering them the support and guidance they need in times of distress. Masata emphasizes that empathy is not only a valuable tool for preventing cyber threats but also for aiding those affected by them. Support is another essential aspect of cybersecurity that should not be overlooked. In a world where cyber threats are ever-evolving, individuals and organizations require a strong support system to navigate the complexities of cybersecurity. This support can come in various forms, including mentorship, training programs, and collaboration among industry professionals. Masata firmly believes that by fostering a supportive environment, cybersecurity professionals can consistently enhance their knowledge and stay on top of emerging threats. Additionally, providing support to cyber attack victims is crucial in helping them recover and regain their confidence in the digital realm. Education and awareness play fundamental roles in promoting human empathy and support in cybersecurity. By educating individuals about the potential risks and consequences of cyber threats, we can empower them to make informed decisions and adopt safer online practices. Moreover, raising awareness about the human element in cybersecurity encourages individuals to cultivate empathy and support within their personal and professional lives. Masata advocates for the integration of cybersecurity education in school curricula and workplace training programs to establish a proactive approach toward cybersecurity. The importance of human empathy and support in cybersecurity cannot be overstated. Kelley Masata's experience serves as a powerful reminder that cybersecurity is not solely a technological battle but also a human one. By fostering empathy, providing support, and promoting education and awareness, we can build a resilient cybersecurity ecosystem that safeguards individuals and organizations from ever-present cyber threats. It is imperative for cybersecurity professionals, industry leaders, and individuals alike to recognize and embrace the human element in cybersecurity to ensure a safer digital future. Key Concepts:
Hello and welcome to Securing Sexuality. The podcast where we discuss the intersection of intimacy and information security. I'm Wolf Goerlich. He's a hacker and I'm Stefani Goerlich. She is a sex therapist. And together we're going to discuss what safe sex looks like in a digital age. And today we are joined by Kelley Masata. We have been super excited to talk to her. It has taken a little while for us to connect.
Shout out to Securing Sexuality advisory board member Ean Meyer for suggesting that we have her on the show. And now that I am super pumped up and excited to talk to her wolf, who is she? She is the founder and CEO of Sightline Security. Sightline Security, of course, is a nonprofit that helps other nonprofits sort out their security issues. Sounds vaguely like us. No wonder Ean wanted us to connect. Hello there. I would love to start out just by hearing more about sightline security and what brought you to this work? Tell us the story of how you got here. Yeah, it's It's kind of a twisted tale. Um, you know it, it's it's not at all where I expected my life to be, um, so not to go too far into the way back machine. Uh, but I started in security, Uh, because I was a victim of cyberstalking. Uh, I was working with someone. Um, we were both in the high tech space, and, uh, he developed an infatuation. Um, and that went on for the better part of seven years. Uh, and you know, for most people, there's all sorts of ways that that folks deal with it. They, you know, contact law enforcement, which I did. They, you know, try and fight back in their own special ways. Um, I went and got a PhD in cybersecurity. My stalker used Tor. And so I actually started by knocking on the door of the tor project and asking them for help. Um, and when I came to learn more about tor, uh, and I, I went to the executive director, and I said, Hey, uh, I could use a job. He's like, What do you do? And I said, I have an MB a in marketing, I can do anything. So I wrote one of their annual reports, started working for the tour project got introduced to open source at that time started PhD, um at Purdue University by meeting and really by chance, I was, uh, had the great fortune of meeting Doctor Eugene Stafford and Becky Base and both of them said, You need to go to Purdue and tell your story. And I was like, Yeah, I, I don't really talk about it publicly. And I was still very much in the shadows, and, uh, they said Staff says, Oh, just come on over, Let's do it. You know, do one of our our talks. And in that moment I was like, OK, well, this will be great. It'll just be with students and faculty and kind of easy. And then I realised while I got on campus that it was going to be broadcasted. And I have to tell you guys, I've never been so afraid in my entire life because, you know, when you've been stopped, particularly through technology, you don't feel that there's any place to hide. And so I just, you know, I kind of mustered up the the courage I remember actually pacing in my room at the Union Hotel at Purdue. Um, before the, uh the talk, and I was listening to Florence in the machine, and I was like, I'm just gonna like channel all that Florence energy and just kind of make it happen. Um, And it And it turned out actually really great. And I was super proud of it. And when staff and I went and had dinner, he very eloquently said in his, you know, only staff way, you can remain a victim or I've got a better path. Why don't you apply to be a PhD student? And I'm like, he, uh I have an MB a in marketing. How does that connect with cyber security? So I went home and I applied thinking that was gonna be it wrote my essay on Amelia Earhart and the power and strength of Women. And, uh, three months later, I get a text message from staff saying, Welcome to the programme. I said, What do you mean? He's like, you're gonna move to Indiana, right? I'm like, No, I'm not. I'm like, I'm a single mom in Boston, Massachusetts. I've got to stay here. So I ended up commuting back and forth, uh, between Purdue and Boston, uh, for my PhD and I was working full time at the tour project, raising my Children still grappling with some of the residuals of the stalking and all the fallout because he was so aggressive. And it was, you know, it was sort of that mindset that at every single semester I was gonna get kicked out. So there was no fear. Like I'd start the semester. I would get all my courses. I would ask my classmates to Skype me and this is before Zoom. Ask my classmates to Skype me in, get the permission from the professors, explain the situation. Everyone was super helpful, but they were also, you know, very strict. Everything was on me. I had to do the work and show up and not ask for any special favours. And and I did, um and I learned cyber security from the ground up in a PhD programme. And, uh so I got to dissertation to kind of fast forward to a sight line. When I got to dissertation, I wanted to know, How could all of the organisations that I was reaching out to when I was at my most desperate, why were they so ill equipped to help me like they were using technology, but they didn't know how to help. They kept thinking Oh, well, that's That's just something else that we can't help you with. So, I, I stepped back and I thought Huh, I wonder if these organisations nonprofits understand how cybersecurity impacts their business and are they prepared for an attack? And I was really thinking about the domestic violence shelters that were in my area, and I was seeking out just some guidance around how to handle the situation. And, uh and so I ended up doing my dissertation, um, doing a gap analysis on the security preparedness of organisations working with victims of violence. Now, mind you because I was late in my career when I proposed this dissertation I went to with my, uh, went to my committee and said, I'm going to look at the entire nonprofit sector and they talked you out of it, and they did. Staff was like, um excuse me, Kelley, this is slide three of, like 30 for my proposal staff like, um, Kelley, get PhD first, then go save the world, not the reverse. So I picked those two lanes and it was astonishing to me, Uh, because I knew in my heart that this was going to be really valuable work. But when you're faced with to finish this this journey of PhD, you have to do a body of research that changes. You know the field and advances things. And when your committee says nonprofits don't care about cybersecurity, nobody's gonna answer your survey. I hope you have a plan. B makes you step back and go. Oh, shoot. I don't have a plan, B. I hope this works. But I actually accepted the challenge and I said to staff, OK, how many responses do I need to give my survey? And he said something like, 56 said, All right, I got 222 out of 500 and it was the moment that that happened that I realised I'm like, this is important for nonprofits. And so that was really the genesis of sightline, because when I finished, uh, the programme Becky Base came up to me after my defence and she said, You can't let this sit on the shelf. You've got to go do something with this work. And so I formed Sightline with that you know encouragement and inspiration behind me to say, Let's help nonprofits figure out where they are against security. Best practises before we just start throwing free stuff over the fence to them saying, Oh, we've got this free firewall. Grab it. We've got these free, you know, passes for password managers. Grab those sightline helps him actually look at the business. Figure out where they are against the cyber security framework, and then they know what free stuff to go look for and why it's important. So I know that was super long. Sorry, guys, but it's a weird It's a weird kind of entry into the security space. I mean, I'm here for it as somebody, that is, you know, a social worker and sex therapist that somehow also ended up take tech adjacent. Your story resonates. So So let me ask a different question. What do you do like now that you've stumbled into this world? Now that you you're doing what you're doing and you've created what you've created, what does that actually entail? Day to day? So day to day, I I'm wearing a few hats for sightline. We actually work with nonprofits of all missions, all sizes and we help them do what are called Kickstarts. Basically, it's getting them started on a cybersecurity journey. It's a six week programme and it really is exciting because I get to actually get to know these organisations before we ever start talking about security. Because one of the things I'm so cu curious about and that we sort of dive in together, is how does security preparedness shift by mission? So an animal shelter has a very different set of security needs then, uh, a domestic violence shelter. But in the cyber security space, we just give bi or the one size fits all model and I'm diving into How do we pull this together? I also wear some hats in open source. Um, I'm still involved with another foundation that helps, uh, build open source technology. Uh, intrusion, detection and network, uh, security monitoring. So I'm still sort of keeping my fingers in that space, but really, every day is waking up and going, huh? How did I get here? And what new, exciting thing is happening in the technology space that I can go figure out and discover and help translate that for nonprofits to make them safer, to make them more aware in many respects. Um, because I think everyone that I've ever talked to particularly and my role at Sightline, everybody is worried about becoming a victim. Everybody is worried about that moment that something is going to snap or something is gonna kind of hit them blindside. And I'm always curious to ask them. Tell me what that looks like for you, and let's figure out how we can help your business kind of survive what might be coming down the pike. I love that wolf. What are you thinking about? I'm thinking about when you were at a woman's domestic violence shelter with the panic buttons and everything that you went through. He wasn't a fan of me having a job with a panic button. Well, yeah, the the panic buttons are are an interesting approach. Uh, and it you know, it was very interesting to me because, uh, my stalker was really adept at using technology. He was very, very skilled at masking his identity. He was very skilled at social engineering, his way into the lives of many, many people. Some relationships in my life never repaired from the damage that he did. And it was interesting to me that when I did go to the domestic violence shelters that they the only thing that they had for people who were coming to them for help was around physical danger. They had nothing that was ready for digital danger. They just kept saying, Well, if he shows up, we'll help you. Which was exactly the same response that I got from the police department when I went to my local police. I mean, I had a restraining order hearing and he showed up in my town 3000 miles away from where he lived to come to the restraining order hearing, and my local law enforcement wouldn't even do a drive by. Do you think that we've gotten any better either in the law enforcement side or in the nonprofit side? Obviously, with the organisations that you help, I'm assuming they've gotten better. But do you think that that we've gotten any better as a broader cultural conversation around recognising, uh, online stalking, online surveillance and and being able to combat it? Or do you do you think that there's still a lot of misconceptions and a lot of missed opportunities to help people. I think it was really Epping and flowing. I, you know, back when this was sort of front and centre in my life was when cyber bullying was top of the news feeds. Right? Children were committing suicide due to bullying cyberbullying. And I remember giving one of my earliest talks. And I said to the audience, Um, there are many times that I wish that the 33 bus would have driven just a little bit faster when I was crossing the street. Mhm, because it was that hard to manage. And at that time, when so much emphasis was on Children in cyber bullying adults, we were held to a different expectation that you can manage this. I had family members that said, Just stay off the Internet. Don't worry about it. Why does it bother you? He's not hurting you. You don't have any bruises to show. And I was like but it is real and it's is tough. So as time has gone on, you know, I think, from where we were with cyber bullying with Children and sort of more cases of cyber stalking and more data and more understanding around it. Things have gotten better, but in some cases things haven't because the technology has advanced and the ease of people using it for their own malicious purposes. To anonymize your identity on the Internet is as easy as a YouTube video. It takes no technical skill whatsoever to do that. So there is this comfort in this ease around technology that when something goes bad and someone just kind of snaps the technology is almost this willing facilitator to do whatever they want it to do without any recourse for the victim. But again, on the flip side for the victim, there are more resources. So there's this this ebb and flow of good and bad across the space victims have more resources, but it's funny. I've I've kept myself pretty, pretty distant from kind of direct work with victims, because I've except for podcasts like this I, I don't try and sit in the headspace of this. Yeah, when victims do reach out to me, they're talking about the same things I was talking about in 2009 and 2010, and I'm like, but why isn't it better? And the laws. The laws were the biggest kind of holy cow. You know, anyone who uses tor you you are immediately sort of in a pickle because Tor is going to bounce those messages. If you're being stalked through that channel around the world and the second you try to unpack that and you're dealing with international law, you're screwed. So victims when I talk to them and they reach out to me, I try to help them sort of step into the space of what do you have control over? You don't have control over someone else, which is a hard thing to wrap your head around, particularly if the attacker is faceless. You don't have control over that person. You just have control over your technical space and your safety. Let's try and figure that out instead of trying to, like, make Facebook do better, you know, make your Gmail account, not be infiltrated. Make all these things work better because everybody wants to say, Oh, I'll go to Facebook. If I get harassed on Facebook, Facebook will protect me. I reported 75 accounts of abuse of my name and of harassment to Facebook, and I got zero responses back. Really? And in some ways, wolf. You know, I don't even blame them. I mean, I do. Why? Why would you say you don't even blame them? Tell me more. I think I've come to sort of resign myself. The fact that the technology itself is Amoral even though it's built by humans and even though humans should be managing, it is almost an impossible task to do that. They can build safeguards and they can do some things, But we can't hold them fully accountable for all the actions of the bad guys. When I was at the Tor Project, I remember I was director of communications when Edward Snowden had his big review. Oh, yeah, And the journalists who would reach out to us to for comment would look up my background and I got called on the carpet for Wait a second. You are now working for the technology that was used as a weapon against you. How does that work? And I said, Oh, well, And in this particular case, it was, um, someone who was being arrested for, for drug, um, for drug dealing. And I was watching the local news during this interview as as I was chatting with this, um, journalist and I was watching the news, and I saw that this person got arrested in the city. Um, and they took like the food was of his car where they arrested him. And I said to the journalist, I said, Oh, I said, Have you contacted the Ford Corporation about this? And they said, No, Why would we? He's used tour. I said, Yeah, but he also drove a Ford. Hm. These tools these technology, are things that we use to facilitate. They can always be used for good, and they can always be used for evil. So would I love Facebook to come to my rescue? Absolutely. But I resigned myself a long time ago that big companies and some of these big technology platforms will never come to the aid of victims. So this reminds me of something that happened years and years ago. Uh, that I don't even know if Wolf knows happened. I was 18, I think, in college for the first time, and I was being stalked and I was being harassed and I was getting threatening notes, and all sorts of things were happening and we went to. I was living in the dorms at college and we went to the school and the school called the local police and the local police put my friends and I through several hours of writing the notes over and over and over again so that they could rule out the fact that I was doing it to myself. And after repeatedly writing my own death threats over and over, I started sobbing. And I'm like, When are you going to help me? And they said, Well, nothing's happened yet. Yes, And I said, So I need to actually be hurt first. Something has to happen to me before you will help. And they said, Yeah, there There hasn't been a crime yet. Until something happens to you, there's nothing we can do. And I left feeling more victimized and more exposed and more scared than when I had walked in. Uh, which might explain my complicated views as a, you know, a domestic violence sexual assault advocate on the police today. But also we've handed those same conversations and those same experiences over to dozens of companies now and that same experience can be replicated um with Facebook and Meta and Google and every other social media platform when you're being harassed online, Absolutely. The burden of proof is on the victim, always. And to explain the technology to law enforcement was absolutely stunning. To me. I'm like I. I actually asked the officers who were taking my statement on my local police department. I said, Um, do you guys have a Facebook page? You know, personal Facebook page? And they said yes. And I said, Do you know about these privacy settings? Because I had learned that the hard way. And they're like, Oh, no, Can you show us? I said, the the privacy saying, Oh, yeah, OK, and can we take my statement because I'm terrified? You know, people. I remember doing some talks with some high school students around cyber bullying and harassment, and I had one student say to me, You know, when will this be over for you? Do you feel like you've gotten beyond it? And I'm like, I don't know if it'll ever be over, because as long as a certain person is out in the wild, this will always sort of be in the back of my head because it's so easy to be able to come at someone in the most, you know, unexpected moments. Like I used to say, carrying this was like carrying him in my pocket, and it was awful because you can't live life without technology. I tried. Trust me. I tried. I tried changing my name. I tried going off the Internet. You know, I tried to repair all these relationships. Um, the FBI took my case. I remember the day that the FBI called me and they said, and they were really They were really nice people. Um they said, you know, Kelley, I'm sorry he's using Tor. We don't have enough evidence. We can go do another knock, knock and talk. I said, Oh yeah, that's a great way to twist someone's tail. No, thank you. And I said, OK, is that it? And they said, Yeah, that's all we can do. And I remember sitting on the floor of my bedroom and thinking, How is it possible that the highest level of law enforcement in our country says to someone with a binder full of evidence, We can't help you? There's nothing we can do to protect you or your Children. That is the experience that so many of the survivors that I've worked with over the years have encountered. That's part of why Wolf and I do the podcast and do the work that we do Having had the personal experiences, the firsthand experiences, uh, yours, which which mirrors mine and like a You know, 20 years later, it's still happening. But with improved technology, Um, what does your research show? What are you finding when you dive dive into this? What is the data on how this abuse is occurring and how protected or not people are? Yeah, I think we are going into unchartered territories now. You know, we now are going into the AI mode where a I can actually mirror people's languages, their tone of voice. So it's going to be even more difficult for my stalker. I actually hired a forensic psychologist to take a look at the anonymous content and the pieces, the shreds of content that I had when he was using his name, because I kept saying, Can someone just tell me whether or not this person is gonna come kill me? It's all I wanted to know are we talking? Psychopath? Sociopath. Big difference. Um, but now that we have AI, we have all this advancing technology, Holy cow. We're gonna have to help guide victims and even new ways of managing this and dissecting for law enforcement and other support services to step in and say, you know, let's take another look at this. But the fear is always, always there. It's really, I mean, it's it is. It's so hard to explain to someone who hasn't kind of gone through it. But it it's very much like you question whether or not you are misreading the signals. Like most of the time when he was active, it was like, Yeah, that's clear. That's him. I get it. And then stuff would happen sort of since then, and you're like, I have to check-in. Is that that, or is that just random or is that something else? And that is where it takes up a lot of bandwidth in your heart and in your mind when you're stepping in and having to kind of analyze those pieces. And I think that's gonna get trickier for victims as we go down the road. Yeah, because There's so many different ways to, you know, spread a pattern out, right? Like if you think about tour as a way of obfuscating where network traffic comes from, you know, the generative A I where you can write things and craft messages are a way of, you know, abstracting and hiding where the content is coming from. Yeah, I ran a test with, uh, one of our members at Sightline who's a domestic violence organisation. Because I was talking to this executive director about you know, this balance of good and evil when you're talking about technology and I said, You want to do a game with me and she's like, Yeah, I said, OK, we're gonna bring up chatGPT Super Easy. And I said, Um, let's see what it does. So I plugged in, write me an email and the voice of an eight year old girl living in this town that whose parents are yelling at her and you know it may be abused. Not she's not sure she's scared. She's concerned that it you know, F in some cues popped out the response, and I gave it to the executive director. I said, Does this sound real to you? And she said, Absolutely. I said, So you would you respond to that? And she said, Absolutely, we would respond to that. Uh, I said, So how do you start training the human recipients to be a bit more weary or leery of these things and saying, Is my Spidey sense going off? You had mentioned, You know, technology is a willing facilitator, and technology can be immoral. One of the conversations that Stefani and I have been having in the tech space is Have you thought about these types of attacks? Have you thought about, um, these types of actions have you threat? Model them? Have you put in place controls? Because, as you might imagine, there's a lot of money and time and energy and effort that goes into Let's keep out a nation-state actor from breaking into our site and not a lot of time or 10 go. That goes to OK. If two people are on the site, how do we make sure even if they once had a relationship, how do we make sure that that relationship is correctly reflected in the technology and that if one partner is not behaving appropriately that there's a way to mitigate that risk. Almost no time and attention seems to go into that. Mm mm Mm mm. We're still relying on human beings to make those calls and to flag that, um for some of the organisations that were involved with the with sightline, some of our members are dealing with those types of forms where they do have kind of interactions between people. And they asked me all the time. They're like, How do we How do we sort of monitor this? And I said, I'm from my experience. It's You've got to be paying attention. Yeah, we've got to be paying attention. And we've got to be giving people safe outlets to come and say, You know what? That didn't feel right. Because, as you know as well as I do, I can say something here amongst us and I can smile and I can hand gesture like I do. And it sounds great. And I can say the same thing on a text message, and someone's gonna be like, What? The fudge. Why is she mad at me? Right. So, having that bringing that human back into those systems I think is absolutely important. And yet that's where we come into the challenges of, Well, that doesn't scale, Kelley. We've got to automate everything. You know. We can't look at all the network traffic over the world. We've got to actually automate things. I get that. But we also have to bring back the human into looking at these things and monitoring these platforms and these relationships. Um, and we have to step back and let people know that it's not OK. You know, if you if you walk down the street and you punch someone in the face, you know that that's not OK for most of the population. If you post something on social media, something awful about them calling them names that, like, apparently is OK Mm, not so much. So we have to start thinking about how do we build these translations between this physical space and this digital space? And I I'm so glad you brought that up because I think oftentimes the the thought is all right. We need to teach the victims how to be smarter victims. I would say you would say that, but oftentimes it's how it I hear it right, we we will do a Q and a with a live audience. And people be like, How do I teach, uh, women not to fall for this? So But the flip side is, how do we teach perpetrators not to perpetrate? Right. How do we make sure it's clear that this is not OK? There's a human on the other side. These are our patterns of behaviours that are unacceptable. Exactly. That's the biggest challenge. And it's you know what? It's getting harder by generation. Really? What is striking to me and this actually popped up? Um, not too soon after I finished PhD where, uh, my daughter was being bullied. Ok, uh, in high school and, uh, you know, you've heard of finsta accounts, right? So kids who set up fake fake instagram accounts So kids will set up an instagram account as an example that they share with family and friends in the general public. And then they set up what's called a finsta account, and a finsta account is a fake instagram account where they get to just have it be the small group or they get to like, I don't know, do weird teenager stuff right? Not always bad, just weird. And my daughter, you know, she was being bullied and she showed me this account. And I was like, You know, I immediately reacted with how can you have this and I and I looking back on it, I was like, Gosh, I should have known better because when she also showed it to her school, the adults also reacted with Oh my God, how could you have that account and what's going on and blah, blah, blah And, you know, And she came back to me with this really eloquent response and she said, Mom, I have a community because she went. She used to go to concerts all the time. She said, Mom, I have a community of people that I connect with through that account who know me as that person. And when they see me in the audience because of all the concert pictures, I point out I have people that I like and that are really my community. And she's like, Please don't take that away from me And it made my breath leave my body and I was like, Holy cow! So as you know, a 50 something year old mom. My reaction when a kid or somebody is being abused with technology. My fierce reaction even today is to shut it down, lock it up. Let's put it in a box. We've got a generation of kids and young adults 30 something, Gosh, 30 something that they have to have it because those are their connections. That is how they operate their lives, that those are the communities. Those are the support systems. I mean, well, did you ever think that we would have mental health professionals working with people through apps on our phone? Right? All right. And it makes me always step back and say, OK, am I the old lady in the room? Should I really kind of check my walker at the door? Um, because we've we do have, you know, I hate the terms digital natives and all that stuff, but But we do have a population of people who interacting through Facebook for good or bad or through other social media platforms is their community. And we can't take victims away from their community. That's what helps you survive. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And we can't take a stance of well, just that Don't do it right. The abstinence model I If you're concerned about getting stock, just get off the Internet. Who who can get off the Internet these days and everything? You give up for that? No, I I'm really I'm really pleased we had the conversation today. I really admire the work you're doing. If a nonprofit is listening, if they're like, yeah, we absolutely need help with this. How do they get in touch with you? What does that process look like? Just reach out to sightlines. Security.org. We've got a website. We've got a kickstart programme. That is fun. It's not like cybersecurity jargon. Oh, my God. We can't do this. It's expensive. All that stuff. Um my mission is really to help nonprofits of any size or mission bring cybersecurity into their business operations. Do you want to know what my least favourite month is of? The whole year was probably. Is it October? Yes. You know why? It's probably not Pizza Awareness Month, the Cybersecurity Awareness month. I hate it. I hate it because it shouldn't be special. It should be how we work, how we run our businesses, how we serve our communities. How we engage with each other and we just need to start looking at it from an angle of Wow, we can actually do better. One of the lessons that I learned, um, in my own journey was and I remember this as I was in my PhD programme, I kept thinking, Oh, my gosh, you know, I was a victim and my story is out, and now I'm getting a PhD and everybody's gonna expect me to be perfect. Everybody's gonna expect me never to stumble, never to have a cyber incident, you know, in the like, really, I kept thinking like, Holy cow, how am I gonna do that? That's just ridiculous. And then I got over that quickly, and I'm like, Look, I can't control the Boogeyman under the bed, right? I can only control Kelley, and I can only work with technology to the depth and breadth of my knowledge of it, and lean on the people that I care about to say. I don't know that Can someone help me? And? And I think in addition to that, in addition to reaching out to people for help, this idea that you just need to be aware of things is not helpful. There are so many things to be aware of so many risks in this world. So many things that could go bad. I if I had to just stop and think and be aware of every bad thing that can happen. Based on any decision, I would never get anything done. Nothing would ever happen. Exactly. But you know what would tell you? Hm? And what? I didn't learn that I probably should have learned back in 2000. Something I won't tell you is, uh I didn't listen to my gut. Yeah, I didn't I didn't listen to my gut. I didn't take a pause. I didn't trust my gut to say that person. Hm? Something's wrong with that. Something's off. Can't put my finger on it. Something's off. And so now I listen to my gut and I take a pause and I start to sort of breathe and engage my brain instead of just like we're so like. Click, click, click And do this. And you know this monitor and that monitor I'm like, No, something weird comes up. Take a pause. The greatest security detector is your Spidey sense. I believe. And the greatest security control is the take a pause and give yourself space to really think through what needs to happen next. Yes, exactly. Oh, can I use that? Well, 100% cheers. Now I'm just repeating what you said. Kelley. Thank you so much for coming out of the show today. It's been a pleasure. Well, thank you so much for inviting me. It was really wonderful to meet you both. All right with that. Thank you so much for tuning into Securing Sexuality. Your source of information you need to protect yourself and your relationships. Securing Sexuality is brought to you by the Bound Together Foundation a 501 C three nonprofit. From the bedroom to the cloud. We're here to help you navigate safe sex in a digital age. Be sure to check out our website SecuringSexuality.com for links to more information about the topics we've discussed here today as well as our live events, and join us again for more fascinating conversations about the intersection of sexuality and technology. Have a great week 
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