Putting the i in Infidelity - securing sexuality podcast episode 89

A man in Britain is suing Apple for the dissolution of his marriage. Could his wife have been upset about his years of infidelity? No way- clearly, his iOS is to blame. This week, Stef and Wolf sit down to ask why this case is happening, what designers could do differently to prevent these situations, how to best keep your everyday messages private, and also just a general "WTF, Richard?"

Securing Sexuality is the podcast and conference promoting sex positive, science based, and secure interpersonal relationships. We give people tips for safer sex in a digital age. We help sextech innovators and toy designers produce safer products. And we educate mental health and medical professionals on these topics so they can better advise their clients. Securing Sexuality provides sex therapists with continuing education (CEs) for AASECT, SSTAR, and SASH around cyber sexuality and social media, and more.


Links from this week's episode:

• Man Sues Apple For Multi-Million Dollars, Here's Why - Times Now News
• ​Messages & Privacy - Apple
• Apple iMessages is Secure... Unless You Have iCloud Enabled - How To Geek

Navigating Digital Privacy in Intimate Relationships: Balancing Technology and Trust in the Modern Age

​In today's digital age, technology has become integral to our lives, impacting various aspects, including our relationships. With the advent of social media platforms, messaging apps, and smartphones, maintaining privacy in intimate relationships has become increasingly complex. Let's delve into the impact of digital privacy on intimate relationships and explore strategies for navigating the intersection of technology and trust. 

Digital privacy refers to controlling and protecting personal information shared online. In the context of intimate relationships, it encompasses the boundaries individuals set regarding sharing personal data, messages, and online activities with their partners. As technology advances, so does the need to establish clear boundaries and expectations regarding digital privacy. 

Social media platforms allow individuals to share their lives with others, often blurring the line between public and private information. Maintaining digital privacy becomes challenging when partners have different preferences for sharing personal information online. Messaging apps have revolutionized communication, but they also raise privacy concerns. The ability to access conversations, read messages, or even monitor online activities can create trust issues between partners. Location-sharing features, while convenient, can also pose challenges to digital privacy. Partners may feel uncomfortable with constant monitoring or the potential for abuse of location data. 

Digital privacy is crucial in building and maintaining trust in intimate relationships. When partners feel their privacy is compromised, it can lead to feelings of betrayal, insecurity, and mistrust. Digital privacy also affects communication in intimate relationships. Partners may hesitate to express their feelings or engage in open discussions due to fear of judgment or privacy breaches. Digital privacy, or the lack thereof, can fuel jealousy and insecurity. Constant monitoring of online activities, messages, or social media interactions can create doubts and misunderstandings, potentially damaging the relationship. 

Open and honest communication is essential to set boundaries regarding digital privacy. Partners should discuss their preferences and expectations, including what is acceptable to share online and what should remain private. Consent is paramount in maintaining digital privacy. Partners must seek permission before accessing each other's devices, messages, or online accounts. Respect for boundaries builds trust and a sense of security. Frequent discussions about digital privacy help address concerns or insecurities. Regularly check in with each other to ensure both partners feel respected and their privacy is maintained. Partners should strive for transparency regarding online activities that may affect the relationship. Being open about friendships, interactions, or potential conflicts can alleviate doubts and foster trust. And, if digital privacy issues persist or significantly impact the relationship, seeking professional help from therapists or relationship counselors can provide guidance and support. 

Digital privacy has become a critical aspect of intimate relationships in the digital age. Navigating the intersection of technology and trust requires open communication, mutual consent, and the establishment of clear boundaries. By prioritizing digital privacy and actively addressing concerns, couples can maintain trust, strengthen relationships, and embrace technology without compromising privacy.

​Hello and welcome to securing sexuality. The podcast where we discuss the intersection of intimacy and information security. I'm Wolf Goerlich. He's a hacker. And I'm Stefani Goerlich. She is a sex therapist. And together, we're going to discuss what safe sex looks like in a digital age. And sometimes safe sex involves others.

Well, I mean, you know, solo play has a place, and I would never insult it.

But, you know, sometimes I would argue the best sex involves a well, I mean, and sometimes you pay for it, I guess is maybe a better term.

OK, so there are nuances and who those others might be, I think is is is what We're what we're getting to. That reminds me of a story I heard about this week.

What's that?

Uh, did you hear that Apple is being sued?

Well, yes, again and again and again.

But what for?

This time, you know, you're right. Every every probably month or so, I get one of those Internet polls from the the data people.

And I get a lot of them asking, like, should Google be broken up?

Should meta be broken up?

How do you feel about Apple these days? So when I hear that Apple is getting sued, I think one of those big like, antitrust things and this does involve trust.

Um, a guy in the UK made news because he is suing Apple because he cheated on his wife.

Well, I mean, iPhones and iPads will have will make you do that. I've been told, um, in this case, you're you're not far off. He was using his iPhone to connect with sex workers.

Oh, dear.

And, um would delete those conversations afterwards. But it turns out that I know you as a cybersecurity expert, will be shocked to hear Just because you delete something doesn't mean it's gone. And his wife found all of those messages on a different I device.

Oh, going back years and left him.

Oh, and he is making the argument. Not that he should have negotiated an open relationship with his wife.

That was, you know, transparent and consensual. Not that maybe he could have chosen to keep his pants on, but rather that he is divorced because Apple was confusing in how they explained their deletion policies and what gets deleted, how and where.

OK, All right.

So, um, yeah, that's a thing. And I'm curious.

Oh, like, I have so many questions, but I guess the first is, like, I have an iPhone, and I use iCloud and iMessage and all the I things. I I'm a big fan of the ice.

But how does it all work?

How How do these things connect?

I love the fact that I can copy something on my phone and paste it on my Mac.

Also, that's a little creepy.

Oh, that was That was like, my favourite feature. I was so excited when I learned I could copy from my Mac to my phone or from my phone to my Mac.

Uh, and sometimes I'm on my Windows computer, and I.

I get really frustrated because I forget, and I keep copying and stopping pasting. I'm like, what is going on?

But I digress that that still feels like magic to me, though it really that one still feels like magic to me.

All right, so we know that iMessages are private. Ostensibly, one of the things I think is intriguing about Apple as a company is their model is not ads, and their model is not data aggregation.

So, like, um, other companies like the Googles of the world, you know, they are very much around.

Hey, you're on an Android.

How much data can I collect?

How can I use that to give you better ads and you know, better experience, and we can argue the pros and cons of that.

But Apple, that's not their model, right?

Their model is a premium device at a premium price, uh, with good protections. And historically, Apple has been the more secure choice has been the more private choice.

Um, as Apple's been rolling out, you know, all sorts of features, including the new A. I I've usually been been OK. I've been on the same page as them, but you bring up an interesting point, which is the If you have iCloud enabled your iCloud, your your device will sync to your iCloud, and your iCloud will sync to your device. And if you have multiple devices, that means yes, absolutely.

Every device that is connected to your iCloud will have a copy of your text messages. If you've allowed those messages to come down, and if you're connected to iCloud.

So yeah, absolutely. That is that is 100% accurate. Which begs the question. Whose fault was this?

Well, I don't I don't know. He Here's the thing. Here's the thing. I'm I You are the one who would have to tell me whose fault is it for someone who's been cheating, that's your role. But I will tell you this.

I do think that, uh, what's this guy's name?

You know, I don't actually know his actual name, but the nom de plume that the journalist gave him was Richard, which, if we're talking about non-consensual cheating, I think dick is a great name.

Oh, all right.

So, clearly, you have feelings about the psychological aspect of this from a technological aspect.

I, I I'm not excusing any behaviour, but I do agree that the way that information is presented to a user may not be clear, right, And we want to be as clear as possible so people can make good security and good good decisions because, uh, yeah, you You think you delete it, but it's not really deleted.

So what is deleted and and where does it go when it's deleted, cause I know sometimes I can delete like a word document, and it doesn't really mean it's gone. It's just moved to the trash bin on my laptop.

So what goes away, and where does it go?

Oh, this is a complicated question that seems like it should have a simple answer.

First off, yes. If you delete an iMessage, it goes into your trash. So if you really want to delete it off your device, you have to delete it from the main part.

And then you have to go into your trash and and delete it from your trash part one part two every time you back up to iCloud, Um, you have, uh, a point in time where if that message was either in the trash or had not been deleted yet, that message is going to be in your backups.

If it is also replicated to other devices, it will also be replicated to other devices because the delete doesn't necessarily sync across to everything.

In addition, just to make this more complicated, um, if you're backing up locally, this was This was a scenario I had to deal with a a few years back, Um, someone was backing up their phone locally, and someone else was using those local backups to read their text messages and and to to follow them and figure out what they're doing.

So if you back up locally, it may still be in that backup.

So what?

What you really wanna think about is every single point in time that you do a backup or create a copy. If that text message this has not been deleted has not been deleted from the trash, it's gonna be in that backup copy and will live and persist as long as that backup or copy lives and persists. So Dick was right. Nothing goes away. Everything is forever.

Well, I mean, those copies are forever, But eventually they get deleted and bundled and everything else so, yeah, eventually they'll be gone.

So if you're backing up, what if I'm not backing up, which I know brings up other issues?

But what if for one reason or another, security stupidity, any point between those two?

I'm not backing up.

If I delete something, is it gone?

Yes, because there's no no other copy.

OK, um I'm thinking about some of the folks that I used to work with when I worked in the domestic violence space. And I'm thinking about how this often would bite people who were significantly more ethical than Richard in the butt.

People that might be, you know, planning an exit strategy, plotting, Um uh, to leave an abusive relationship, discussing things like, um, needing a health care procedure or travelling out of state for something.

How does all of this impact people who are at risk of more than an ugly divorce?

Well, that's a really good question. Those messages are going to be around.

So I mean, if you have this gets back to that situation I was telling you about, there was a situation where I was tangentially involved in investigating where someone was spying on someone else based on their local backups of their phone.

And, uh, we know this happens, right?

This is this is almost akin to, uh, the the spyware or the, um, you know, the the, uh, key loggers and everything else we've talked about. If someone wants to spy on someone, they can spy on them through those backups, uh, or through those other devices, so absolutely, Yeah.

I mean, there there is certainly a a ramification there for people in abusive relationships.

So why haven't the tech companies created a fix for this shit?

Why isn't there a button that says when I delete something?

I still want it to be a backup somewhere versus when I hit Delete, No matter what device it's on, I want it gone from everywhere. I feel like if we can copy paste from my phone to my laptop, then Apple should be able to delete from my laptop to my phone. I think those buttons would probably be confusing, though.

I mean, there there are certainly options, right?

I mean, uh, if you really want all your data gone, you can file file a GDPR request, and ostensibly Apple will delete all your data. Whether or not those backups are still in their backups is another question. So that would be one thing that comes to mind so you can do a full purge if you wanted to.

Um, but you're right.

I mean, that there could be a easier dialogue button or the delete could just delete period. Which would I think most people would want it to work.

Yeah, I don't wanna have to do a GDPR request if I'm rapidly trying to exit a dangerous situation.

I want to I wanna have, like, the the big red button, right?

Like that. Just nukes the messages. Sure.

So why why is that not a thing?

I know I'm asking you to kind of, like project into the minds of the Apple design team.

But from your perspective, as somebody that thinks about design as somebody that thinks about the ways that things can go sideways or be, um, Curb cut into something even better Why?

This is not a thing yet.

Well, we don't want a big red button. I'd want a big red button I. I think everyone wants a big red button.

But again, for the the sake of this conversation, we we have backups. And this is where there are somewhat competing design concerns because on the one hand, I wanna delete all my messages. But on the other hand, I want all my messages across all my devices. On the one hand, I want to to be forgotten.

On the other hand, I want to buy a new phone, and I want all my settings and my messages to follow me in my contacts and my photos.

Um So there there are competing goals here, right?

And the goals of accessibility, the goals of portability.

Um, you know, those those goals are directly at odds with this goal of privacy vis a vis the big red button. So I suspect that's what it is.

But in the meantime, aren't these things supposed to be encrypted like, Why?

Why was this accessible at all?

Anyway, if you if we can't make it go away, why are why was it viewable?

Yeah, that's That's a great point, right?

One of Apple's big touting points is use iMessage. It's end to end encrypted sounds perfect. And I like that. I really do like the fact that iMessage and and encrypted um, I think I told you I did a workshop recently where we built a simulated cell network in AWS. And then I taught people how to steal text messages. You did.

And then I asked you to explain each individual word of that sentence first sentence to me, and I don't think I did a good job. I have learned AWS.

Yes, we're good. All my books come from.

OK, quick aside. And then I'm gonna jump back in the early days of cloud.

Um, one guy was I was at a meeting, and this guy, I think he was a CFO was bragging about how smart his team was because they buy books all the time and he knows because he gets the Amazon bill and we had to break it to him.

Buddy, your tech people are not buying books. They put a whole bunch of servers in the cloud.

He's like, What does that mean?

I thought Amazon was only for books.

I mean, to be fair, they say you can get everything on Amazon. I did not realise you could buy clouds, but as an eighties baby who loved the care bears, I am pleased that the clouds are now purchasable online.

Do you know?

I really wish there were care Bears in the cloud. I think that would make like a little like Grumpy Bear popped up. And I would be the security person, of course. And lion heart popped up. That would probably be your firewall or your front end load bouncers.

I mean, I really would. That would make it so much more.

All right, we are way off track.

No, but wait, I have a proposal.

Yes, your firewall is the care Bear stare. When somebody tries to get in all the little virtual care bears line up and their tummies light up and it keeps out the bad guys.

See, I'm telling you, this would make every conversation I had with you about the work. I do so much better.

I mean, if you could really, like, break down every programming language and or task that you do into a colourful bear with a symbol clear and distinct in the middle of it, it would really make our conversations much easier.

Yeah, Yeah, I get it. But regular text messages sent in clear text. Best way to message is and end encryption. Best end end encryption programme is what signal signal. Shout out to our friends at signal. Not our sponsors, just our just our friends. We need to get sponsors one of these days anyways, so iMessage apple again is is privacy focused, privacy centric and iMessage does do end to end encryption.

Which means Apple cannot read your message. If I text you right now and you text me, Apple cannot read that, uh, nor can the cell network. Nor can the government. Which is why a lot of people complained, um, in the government side, because obviously that could allow terrorists and all sorts of stuff.

However, that is not how this gets leaked. This gets leaked when it is an iCloud and replicated down to people's devices or backed up. It's the backup side of things that, uh is being compromised here, not the end to end.

Does it count as compromise?

If it's his device, like right?

The thing that that really bothers me about this or maybe doesn't bother me, it's the least surprising part about this is that it's not like his wife was using a keylogger because she had suspicions. He was on his phone. She used the family laptop and everything was right there. So we're talking about encryption.

We're talking about protection, but does it even really count as breaking in?

If it's just one of the other machines in your house?

Not really. And that you know, ideally, if you wanted your information to be private, you would not be sending it to a laptop like I don't send any of my text messages to my laptop. It stays on my phone. When you ask me to pick up some food on the way home, that never never leaves my phone, baby, it's safe.

Meanwhile, when Cinnabon cancels my doordash order, I get notified everywhere that I will not be having delicious sugar.

Goodness, I'm so sorry.

But there there is also additional things we can do, right?

So in those iCloud backups, if you're brave, you can enable advanced data protection.

And what advanced data protection does Is it encrypts your backup?

Only you have the key. So Apple stores the file Apple still protects. The file still makes the file available, but Apple cannot read it. Law enforcement cannot read it. No one can read it, um, without the key. So it's advanced data protection.

Now why say, if you're brave?

Because if you get that key, if you don't have the key, there's no helping you. There's no getting it back. There's no getting into it, because if you get into it, it won't be protected.

So within, within Apple settings, there is an advanced data protection option that could be used.

Uh, or, of course, you could just disable iCloud backups. All the other.

Is there a reason not to disable iCloud backups like, is there a good reason to keep on the automation?

Yeah, I mean, so again, this is This is these are trade ups.

What happens if you're travelling and you lose your phone or your phone gets stolen?

Um, Or what happens if one day your phone doesn't turn on which has happened to you before, right?

Your your I. I don't know if it was this iPhone, but your last iPhone or two iPhones ago, it it won't hold a charge, and they couldn't get it to turn on.

You remember that?

Yeah. It decided that it aspired to be a brick. Isn't that like the the the cell phone equivalent of we invite you to add value elsewhere. We invite you to add value as a break. You are now building material.

So the, um, in that scenario, if you didn't have a cloud backup or local backup again was there is local options. If you didn't have either of those two options, there would have been no way to recover your photos, other text messages, your notes, your contacts, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and also within iCloud backup. You can also determine what you want to back up to. So there's that.

So coming back to you know, my vulnerable person, my person who needs to rapidly escape a situation.

Is there, like the opposite of an iCloud backup?

Is there a way to I know I can, like, reset my phone to factory settings, right?

Like maybe it's not aspiring to brick them quite yet, but we want it to be nice and shiny new.

Is there something I can do that would do that across all of my devices?

Yeah, you could, um, you could turn off iCloud backups. You could go in and and manage your cloud storage and apple and delete them all absolutely OK. And unlike Dick and his Tris deleting that would delete it across all devices. No. So whatever is already on those other devices already on those other devices, and here's something else I want to ask you about.

Let's suppose, let's suppose we had you know, Richard and Sally and and, well, Richard is always already the character here.

Uh, give me another character name.

Uh, Lucy, Lucy and Sally.

OK, two women. Seems a little bit more far fetched to me, but maybe not two women in that one's an abusive situation. So Lucy's abusive Sally wants to get away.

Run, Sally, run! Here's the thing.

Um, and by the way, I I am. I should I should probably preface this. I am a very playful person when I talk. If you are in one of these situations, please know I take it very seriously. I just tend to be very playful in my communication style.

So, please know, we do want everyone to be safe and hold in their relationships.

So Lucy and Sally, right?

Here's my question to you love. If Lucy has the iPad or a second iPhone And if Sally has the first iPhone and Lucy is monitoring the messages from Sally and Sally, turns them off, stops the the backups, whatever.

Isn't that going to be an indication?

Because if I don't know, um I, I don't even know how this works.

Would would an abuser check every day, every hour?

How does that work?

I mean, every situation is different But I have known most of the people I've known in this situation because abuse is ultimately about control. Their abusers tend to be very controlling, meaning they tend to check more often. There's a hyper vigilance. There's a heightened level of persistent scrutiny happening for sure.

So if they check in the morning and there's been only mess messages and then they check at lunch and they know they've seen the person texting, they know that there has been text messages, but there's no new messages.

Does that put the person in harm's way?

Yes, absolutely. It it certainly can, because it shows a difference in a pattern. So I would, I would think, if you were doing that and you knew someone was already following your messages. You should switch to a different communication platform, like Signal or WhatsApp for just a couple key messages to get out or whatever.

Um, instead of some messages go through.

Otherwise, I would think that might raise alarms different pattern. Like you say if and I don't know if this is a you question or me question. But along those same lines, though, if you know I'm in an abusive relationship if I'm a controlling partner. If I'm checking my partner's phone when they're asleep at night and I see a new app like signal, I mean, that's gonna raise some questions for me, too.

Yeah, Yeah, that's true. I really wish that iMessage had, like, a covert mode the way that signal does like a a way.

I mean, they have the, you know, you can set up albums. You can have a private album and stuff like that. They should have a way to have private conversations. I agree. Ah.

So what?

What are you thinking?

This is This is AAA crazy story. It happens all the time, which is part of why it perked my interest.

Because, uh, it it it feels like something people should know, right?

Like, you should know that your text messages are on your iPhone, which are on your iMac, which are on your I everything. Um but he didn't. And he's not only like, wow, I didn't expect that. And now I'm divorced. He's suing Apple for $5 million.

So what do we What do we think about this?

Ultimately, what are what are your thoughts?

Well, I think he's suing for £5 million but that that doesn't make it much better. Putting aside what caused this case, I do think tech companies need to be more transparent and more clear about what data is kept and what data is shared and what data is stored.

What could that look like?

One of one of his complaints was that the message he got when it said deleted wasn't clear to him.

It, you know, it says message deleted, and he felt like it should have said message deleted on this device.

Um what?

What would that transparency look like from your opinion?

Yeah, I think it would. Either. Message deleted from that device. That sounds fine.

Uh, alternatively, deleted across all devices like we were talking about.

Yeah, I. I feel like that should be the default.

I mean, if you're if you are already sinking the sinking, the sand, you should sink the delete. Totally agree. So that would be That would be one. And then I do think for for the rest of us who are listening into this, um, if you are using iMessage, be aware of this. It's being sent. Check your other devices.

Make sure you're OK with those other devices having those messages sent there?

Um, I might suggest disabling iCloud, uh, or if not enabling advanced data protection again, noting that if you disable it, you could risk losing data. If you enable advanced data protection, you better at never, ever, ever never forget the key.

And what do we think of what do we think of our our buddy Dick at the end of the day?

Is who Who is Apple?

The reason why he's divorced. That sounds like the type of question you would ask a sex therapist.

So I might say to you, Is apple the reason he was divorced?

You know, I'm gonna go with No, I think the reason why he I don't think I know the reason why he's divorced is because he stepped outside of his negotiated relationship agreements. Right. Like we we talk about this a lot, that that in my world, I'm never going to judge somebody for what they and their partner or partners choose to do.

I'm gonna judge them when they don't live up to those choices or where they, um, break those commitments. And so you know, II, I get that that our buddy Dick is looking for a reason to deflect responsibility. He he talked in the article about how painful the divorce is for Children.

And, yeah, that's absolutely true. But I don't necessarily know that it's Apple's fault that he got caught because if he hadn't have been doing it, it wouldn't have been there to catch him.

Yes, And so whether you're negotiating your relationship, contract with your partner or whether you're negotiating the privacy policies with your technology provider, always be aware of what you're committing. Always be aware of what you're sharing. Always be aware of where it's going.

Wait, I get to negotiate with my providers now. I thought I just had to scroll through a 700 page to S and click.

Yes, if I didn't want to break. I didn't say you had much power negotiating. I appreciate that. You're right, and we do need more power. We we need more choice. We need more informed choice in in all of this, and I'm always glad that you let me pick your brain about these crazy stories I find on the Internet. And I'm always glad to you. Friends who listen to us.

It blows my mind every time that you guys show up, week after week and listen to Wolf and I laugh and joke and, you know, flirt with each other sometimes and also occasionally talk about important security and sexuality information. And and you know we wouldn't do it if you weren't listening. So thank you for that. And thank you for tuning into securing sexuality.

Your source for the information you need to protect yourself and your relationships. Securing sexuality is brought together by the bound together Foundation of 501 C three nonprofit in the bedroom of the cloud. We're here to help you navigate safe sex in digital age.

Be sure to check out our website securing sexuality.com for links to more information about this story and other topics we've discussed here today, as well as our live events and our micro grant cycle, which is open right now.

Oh, yeah, definitely. Check that out and join us again here, right here for more fascinating conversations about the intersection of sexuality and technology. Have a great week

Previous Episode Back To Top Next Episode