   
Securing Sexuality is the podcast and conference promoting sex positive, science based, and secure interpersonal relationships. We give people tips for safer sex in a digital age. We help sextech innovators and toy designers produce safer products. And we educate mental health and medical professionals on these topics so they can better advise their clients. Securing Sexuality provides sex therapists with continuing education (CEs) for AASECT, SSTAR, and SASH around cyber sexuality and social media, and more.
Links from this week's episode:
Navigating Ethical Non Monogamy: Insights from Stephanie Sigler of Evolve Your Intimacy
In recent years, the concept of ethical non-monogamy has gained significant attention and acceptance in society. Ethical non-monogamy refers to intimate relationships that involve multiple partners with the knowledge and consent of all parties involved. While the idea of non-monogamy is not new, the rise of the digital age has presented new challenges and opportunities for those navigating this lifestyle. Here we explore the various challenges faced by individuals practicing ethical non-monogamy in the digital age and discuss strategies to overcome them.
The Challenges: 1. Privacy and Boundaries: One of the primary challenges faced by individuals practicing ethical non-monogamy in the digital age is maintaining privacy and setting clear boundaries. With the proliferation of social media platforms and dating apps, it has become easier for others to access information about one's personal life. This can lead to potential breaches of privacy and unwanted attention from friends, family, or colleagues who may not understand or accept non-monogamous relationships. 2. Communication: Effective communication is essential in any relationship, but it becomes even more crucial in non-monogamous dynamics. With multiple partners involved, expressing one's needs, desires, and boundaries becomes even more complex. The digital age, with its plethora of communication tools, can both help and hinder this process. While technology allows for constant communication, it can also lead to misunderstandings or misinterpretations due to the lack of non-verbal cues. 3. Jealousy and Insecurity: Jealousy and insecurity are common emotions experienced in any relationship, and ethical non-monogamy is no exception. In the digital age, jealousy can be exacerbated by constant exposure to other people's lives through social media. Seeing one's partner interact with other partners online can trigger feelings of inadequacy or fear of being replaced. Managing these emotions requires open and honest communication and a deep understanding of oneself and the dynamics of non-monogamy. 4. Navigating Online Platforms: The digital age has revolutionized dating and connecting with potential partners. However, finding like-minded individuals who are open to ethical non-monogamous relationships can still be a challenge. Navigating online platforms and dating apps requires careful consideration of how to present oneself and communicate intentions without coming across as disingenuous or predatory. Building trust and establishing compatibility within the digital realm can be a daunting task. Strategies for Navigating Ethical Non-Monogamy: 1. Establish Clear Boundaries: Setting clear boundaries within non-monogamous relationships is crucial for maintaining a healthy dynamic. Discussing privacy settings on social media platforms, determining what information is shared publicly, and establishing guidelines for communication with other partners can help maintain privacy and prevent misunderstandings. 2. Prioritize Communication: Effective communication is the cornerstone of any successful relationship, and it becomes even more vital in non-monogamous dynamics. Regular check-ins, sharing feelings openly, and practicing active listening can help address any concerns or insecurities that may arise. Utilizing various communication tools, such as video calls or voice messages, can also help bridge the gap caused by the lack of non-verbal cues in digital interactions. 3. Cultivate Emotional Resilience: Building emotional resilience is essential when navigating ethical non-monogamy in the digital age. This involves developing a strong sense of self-worth, understanding one's own needs and desires, and being able to manage jealousy and insecurity constructively. Engaging in self-reflection, seeking support from trusted friends or therapists, and practicing self-care can help individuals cultivate emotional resilience. 4. Utilize Supportive Online Communities: The internet has given rise to numerous online communities and forums dedicated to ethical non-monogamy. Joining these communities can provide a safe space to connect with like-minded individuals, seek advice, and share experiences. Engaging in discussions and learning from others who have navigated similar challenges can be invaluable in developing strategies for successful non-monogamous relationships. Ethical non-monogamy in the digital age poses unique challenges and opportunities for individuals navigating this lifestyle. Individuals can successfully navigate the complexities of ethical non-monogamy in the digital age by prioritizing privacy and boundaries, practicing effective communication, cultivating emotional resilience, and utilizing supportive online communities. While challenges may arise, with dedication and open-mindedness, ethical non-monogamy can lead to fulfilling and enriching relationships. Key Concepts:
Hello and welcome to securing sexuality. The podcast where we discuss the intersection of intimacy
and information security. I'm Wolf Goerlich. He's a hacker and I'm Stefani Goerlich. She is a sex therapist, and together we're going to discuss what safe sex looks like in the digital age. Today I am super excited because we have both a friend of securing sexuality and also a really good friend of ours, Stephanie Sigler, joining us. Stephanie is an award-winning clinical sex psychologist, a sexuality coach, the founder of Evolve Your Intimacy, and a first-time author. Her new book, The Clinician's Guide to Ethical Non Monogamous Relationships. Working with clients with alternative lifestyles, comes out next month, July 31st, and she is here to tell us all about her work with the ENM community. Stephanie, I am so excited. I have missed your face. I have missed you, too. Oh my gosh, Well, of course I've missed you as well. But Stephanie, it's been too long. The Stephanie’s have to stick together. It's nothing about you, baby. It's just – it's a Stephanie thing. No, I mean, right off the bat. We got twice the sexologists twice the Stephanie and twice the snar heading my way. So this is fantastic. Aren't you a lucky man? I can't wait you You're just You're You're just in for a treat, I. I absolutely am. But you know, award winning. What? What? What awards? So I have been love I, I I've been grace blessed. I don't know. I don't know what you wanna call it, but I've been I've won educator of the year three times, um, for the A N Awards and then Educator of the Year website Three years. And then last year, I accidentally won influencer of the year. I don't know how that happened, but social media influence of the year and so that happened. And now this year, I'm nominated for, um educator website and then social media again. I was floored. There's so many other people out there who have, like, great platforms. And I mean, I'm out there, but not like they are, But hey, I love it. I'm It just must be because I'm such an electrifying person that you are ASN. That was the one we were at last year, right? In Vegas or the other year. That's AVN is that? No, no, the AVN awards are different than the ASN awards, but yeah, um did you You guys went to the AVN awards? We did. And we ended up in a sweet party, with with a bunch of, you know, adult entertainers and porn stars and everything else. And my wife was being very wholesome and being very much herself. And at some point in time, I thought to myself, You know, A) I am so out of my element and B) you know, if, like, someone's like, Hey, why is Wolf there like that Might raise questions. So I should preface this. I had had a couple of cocktails, I messaged my manager at the time I reached out to her and I'm like, so we are at AVN right now. Somehow we ended up in a sweet party with a whole bunch of stars. My wife see, it's really much more wholesome than it sounds. I know. And like, 30 seconds later, my boss just messaged back, She's like, Yeah, I'm sure I know you, too. I'm sure it's much more awesome. Have a good time. Well, and I get that because I travel to the exotica conventions and, um, usually I would be in the one in Miami. But I can't go to the one in Miami because Naughty in New Orleans is the same time as well. And I'll be teaching at Naughty. So I go to all the exotica. And when I tell people I'm going to porn conventions, they're like what? Like OK, it's much more wholesome than what you think. Like it's not what you think. Yes, there's a bunch of beautiful, naked people walking around. Um, but they have pasties, They have pasties, and they have crocs. That was what really threw me off when we were at a VN. I actually think we titled that episode. Crocs are not sexy because it was a weird number of adult performers in rubber shoes at that event. It was strange, but it was true. And and lots of people in like pyjamas by the time we got to some of it. So just like chilling out comfortable. But anyways, we are way off track, like what are what are you most excited about with this book? This looks fantastic. I am very excited to provide a a blueprint for therapist coaches, sex coaches, anybody who works with other people who are in alternative relationships because nothing out there was nothing out there. We as therapists, have treatment plans for everything except sex. And so one of the reasons why I wanted to create this is because I have so many clients that I work with in ethical, non monogamy relationships. E, ethical, non monogamous relationships. I can talk and they tell me all the time, you know, we go to counsellors and the counsellors tell us what's our lifestyle that we need to change? And if we weren't in the lifestyle, then our marriage would be fine. But it's not that we just can't communicate. Or they went to therapists to try to talk to them about getting into the lifestyle, and they got talked out of it, and they told him, You know, all kinds of terrible things about the lifestyle, and it just really broke my heart, and but to me, I feel like it's a lack of knowledge, and so to be able to provide this and be able to provide a blueprint knowledge treatment plans. Here's handouts. Here you go. Take it and it can be Plug and play into your practise and you can start hopefully helping those clients that want to try things a little bit differently than what some therapists are accustomed to. So that is part of how you and I ended up friends, right? Because everything you're describing is exactly what my kinky clients deal with. They go to the marriage counsellor because they're struggling with communication and conflict, and they're told, Well, that's because you're kinky or they go because they want to learn how to negotiate that dynamic for themselves. And they're told, Well, that's not healthy and you need to stop. So we work with, like, cousin communities. And that's part of why I've always enjoyed knowing you and bouncing ideas off of you. Absolutely. And I mean, I get art. I will like to say that art ethical not not E and M community, my lifestyle community is what I call them. They're kinky as hell, too, and you know, we get a lot of the overlap, but you're right. If there's anything kinky about it. They're always told that that is just unhealthy. You just like pain. You need to go to see some or something crazy like that. You you shouldn't like pain. Ah, so four hour sweet and idiot Innocent. I almost said, idiot, that's not the right word. Sweet and innocent listeners such as myself, Can you please give us, like, kind of a high level overview? What is what is E and M when we say E and M and how is that the same or different than the lifestyle? Is the lifestyle swinging? Is that term out of date like give us a quick vocabulary lesson so that we can all catch up for the rest of our chat? Absolutely. So ethical. Non monogamy is the umbrella. And then underneath hanging, I like to call you think of a baby mobile. So we have ethical, non monogamous and we have the little strings that hang down from the baby mobile, right? And so we have, like swinging. We have Polly. We have, um kinky. We have nudist. They're kind of included in ethical non monogamy because they go to these type of thing, these type of, um, environments to be part of it. They may not participate, but they're really open to it. And so even the nudist kind of get lumped into that. The lifestyle is anything that you want, I I My definition of it is the lifestyle is anything that's not heterosexual monogamous. OK, that's a big umbrella with a lot of baby Mobile. Dang, yeah, because you know my lifestyle. If if I would say I'm a swinger, quote unquote a swinger, my swinging lifestyle is going to be completely different than what my neighbours swinging lifestyle is going to be because of my dynamics are different than theirs. And people think that you have to do it one specific way or if you're you're not a swinger or you're not in the lifestyle. You know you're not kinky if you don't do it this way or whatever, but there's so many different ways to look at something and to own it and make it yours, personalise it, and so the lifestyle can be whatever you want it to be. So when I think of terms like Swinging, I think of like the swinging seventies with like key parties and stuff like that and again I'm sweet and innocent. And for our fellow sweet and innocent listeners, a key party back in the seventies would be a house party where everybody would throw their house keys in a fish bowl. And at the end of the night, a woman would pick a pair of keys, and that was who she was going home with. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Stop. Um I thought a key party was like, When you're doing PK, I You're trying to teach people how to, like, exchange secure messages. You get together, you physically exchange public private key pairs. No, I mean, unless you're naked when you do it. I No, I've never been to a APK party where you're naked. So that's like the the the non nerdy kind of key party is where my head went. But I feel like we don't necessarily find our lifestyle people these days with a fish bowl full of car keys. So how are lifestyle folks fighting each other these days? We have websites We have dating websites like you could not believe we have so many really good platforms that we can use. We have dating websites we have dating apps now. So techno technology has really allowed us to open up before people would put ads in Craigslist or they went to resorts or they went to parties and it was really hard to connect. And you didn't know who was really in the lifestyle unless they were in the grocery store with the upside down pineapple type thing. And they're like, Oh, well, maybe you are. And so what's that? The Internet came online, I guess, is the best way to say it. It exploded when it came. When it comes to us being able to communicate. So, yeah, we have so many websites that allow us to communicate and they're dating websites for couples. How do you when you're coaching somebody help them know which sites are best for them? Which ones are safest, Which ones are gonna have the right sort of crowd for them? How do you help them parse out amongst those options? Well, I am on five of them, professionally and personally. I mean, I have those accounts too, and so usually I, I tend to stick to those the ones that I am on because I know the INS and outs of them. I know they're safe. I know that. You know, I can see what goes on. And so if you are part of my group or something and you have questions, you can reach me. There are some out there that are not secure, and so I try to stay away from those. But when I'm asking the clients, OK, what are you into? So there's one out there that's just for bisexual women. And, you know, if you want to be with another woman, there's a dating website for that. Now, does that mean that you and your husband can't be on there? Absolutely not. The couples can be on there, but they're looking for it's called. Can I say the names of them? Sure. OK, so the one is unicorn landing, So it's unicorn. They're unicorns looking for couples. And so couples are on there looking for unicorns, and so that one's more specific for that type of dynamic. If you're looking for there, if you're an older couple, usually I'll send you to one that's called SLS, because that's more of an older dynamic and older age, uh, an older dynamic shit. I'm just gonna keep saying the word dynamic over and over and over, and then if you're younger, there's several different options. But usually the one I send them to is it is, um, S DC, and that one is more educationally based. So there's lots of really great educators on there. There's It's really good for those just starting in the lifestyle because you can get your questions answered and you know they provide all of these fun classes. But also there's sexy people on there and you're dating as well. So you mentioned unicorns and unicorn landing, and that perked up my ears. Because a lot of times in our world, um, and when I say our world, I mean the sex therapy world, not necessarily the lifestyle world, Um, unicorn is not considered a good thing. Unicorn hunting is a pejorative right. A lot of couples that are looking for the bisexual woman to join them are looked down on, um, or looked at with suspicion. So how does that play into the the unicorn websites? Or the the ways that people who are like a wholesome couple that really would love a triad dynamic or a one off experience. How do they navigate that? Um, sort of mixed messaging. It sounds like, Well, you have to be very secure with what you and your partner want. You know what you and your partner want more than anybody else? And so if you're coming into this, you've already had those tough conversations. And if you haven't, then you need to start that. You have to start there. Those tough conversations. You cannot bring a third into your relationship, whether it be a unicorn, a bull or whatever, unless you have a strong foundation, because it's going to un they every crack you ever could imagine in your relationship. So that's the first part that I I make sure is It doesn't matter if if I I'm a unicorn right now because you know I'm single in the lifestyle. So for me, if I being a unicorn is not a bad thing in in our world, in the lifestyle world, because I choose who I want and who I don't want, they choose who they want and who they don't want. It's all about consent, and it's all about communication. So when people look down on the unicorns, usually it's because they've had an experience with someone who wasn't very ethical and what I mean by that they were trying to divide and conquer. Maybe they were trying to, you know, split the couple up and take one or the other. Or maybe they just didn't know what they were doing. Because a true unicorn is a gift to the couple. So I am a gift. I am to enhance the relate the the primary relationship. If a unicorn is not enhancing your relationship, then they don't need to be part of it. And so what? I really want to kind of change that stigma is unicorns don't have to be negative. They can be a gift to the couple. So if a wholesome couple is looking for a gift, then they can get on unicorn landing and and read through the profiles kind of start chatting and see if they have a good fit with them. And if you don't feel like you have a good fit, don't do it. So a minute ago, you had said that some of the sites were more secure than others, and as you're also talking about, like you know, people who may try to divide and conquer. I'm thinking about, um you know, some of the conversations we've had in this podcast before where one person is like, Oh, yeah, So the other partner read those private messages and that sparked jealousy or sparked relationship prompts. Um, so I I I've got a couple questions that come to mind first is how do you know what sites are secure? Like, how How are people in the this lifestyle or people who are pursuing this making those judgments? I go by how long they've been around. And also how have they ever had data breaches? Have they ever had anything you know, their website stolen or, you know, has information been stolen? But I say that because I also research it and make sure there are several websites that have had data breaches. And, um, unfortunately, some very sexy pictures of a lot of millions of people were put out on the dark Web and leaked. But that's also kind of one of the things that you put yourself out there for. Even if you're on tinder and you're sending out nudes it through tinder, they can take them and share them and whatnot. But so I guess the the more secure sites I know that one of them just started adding that we have to do math now. So before we can log in, we have to like three plus five equals what before they'll let you in. And sometimes the numbers are so large I can't. I'm like, Hold on 1718, 1920 before I can even log in and I'm assuming that makes it safe. So W I have a question for you. Does that make that safer? I think there was a point in time where it made it safer. But these days in age, that is a really easy thing to to to crack. We're also seeing, like, cap shows used to actually work. And now you can just throw the picture to chat TPT and it'll solve it. I think all that's gonna do is keep out people like my lovely wife. It's like Wait a minute, I got to do math. Wow, you hate math, but I can do it at least at the capsule level. Absolutely. Yeah, but you I, I could see you quitting a website over math. That's all I said. The minute they bring order of operations into a cap shop out. Mhm. Yeah. Please excuse My dear Sally is what I'd be saying all the time. Um, the other question I have is how does the conversations work like, Is there is it Is it a group chat? Is it individual chats? Because I'm going back to against some these conversations that we've had in the show where people are very concerned about private messages and what can be shared and what can't. I always suggest that if you are going to get into this with your partner that you and your partner you have. Most people use WhatsApp because WhatsApp has been fairly secure. There's a lot of people and and one that's called telegraph. They allow you to send the the nudie pictures back and forth. And it's it all started out. We were all on Facebook and got kicked off there, so they had to find somewhere else. And so WhatsApp was the place. And I tell all of my couples what you have to do is you go into a group message. You don't split off because once you start splitting off and having those private conversations. That's when bad stuff happens. We have doubt. We have jealousy. We have opportunities to cheat. Yes, you can cheat in an ethical, non monogamous relationship. And so I really think that as a whole, staying in a group and opening up that conversation. So, II, I highly suggest that people stay. And if they're gonna have four, you know two couples having a four way chat because, yeah, you can break off and it does get it. It gets overwhelming Number one and number two. There's just too much room for doubt. Is that Is it very common to jump to WhatsApp, though? Because I've also know that, like, if you're on a dating site and they're like, Oh, this is great, Please join me on on WhatsApp. That can be a sign that it's a it's fraudulent or a scam. I just know that a lot of people use WhatsApp on in in our community in our lifestyle because of just the ease of it, and they can easily put different people in the groups and then and then easily take them out. Now on the website, do you have? It's a couple websites, so you have access. You and your partner are on there together. And the chat. You have the chat and you can see the chat. Of course, you know, because you log into the same account. But yeah, there are something. There are some people who do. There's gonna be people who abuse all systems, though. You know, there, if you wanna cheat and you wanna do bad things and you don't want to be ethical, you're gonna find a way around it. That's why when I say ethical non monogamy, we'll pull out every single crack you ever thought or even not even knew you had in your relationship. And that's why you have to work through it. And I love that you guys are talking about this because, you know, I have couples that come, and that's one of my my main jams. My, my bread and butter is helping couples navigate this so they come to me and it's literally a 10 step process. I'm like, OK, so why do you wanna do this? What are our rules, Boundaries and agreements. And you know, if they don't have those established, then we're not going to move forward. We're not going to progress in a healthy manner. So many people trip and fall right in. You know, we've all heard that Oh, it just happened. I went to this club and oh, my gosh. Here we are in an orgy, and you're just like, what? No, no, Um, you can say no in those situations, but you have to have that foundation laid. And also God, I cannot say it enough That trust my my personal favourite variation on We just tripped and fell into ethical. No monogamy is one of us met somebody. Uh huh. And that's how we realised we were insert adjective here poly open swinging And, you know, in my work with my couples, I tell them the same thing. You do, right? Like you cannot open your relationship to solve a problem. You have to be starting on a strong foundation and build from there. And I'm always very hesitant when I hear the we opened up for a person as opposed to. This was something we decided to do together. And then we opened up because there's always there's always gonna be that partner that didn't really want it, but doesn't wanna lose their other partner, so they're just kind of going along with it, taking one for the team type thing. There's gonna be resentment. It builds. And then when they meet somebody, the secondary, you know, the partner who didn't really want it, then they meet somebody. Well, nine times out of 10, the one who did want it gets Jed list of them having it because they want it to be just for them. So you're right. It has to be a joint effort. It's like having a baby. So oh, we're We're arguing all the time. Our marriage is on the rocks. Let's have a baby. Well, what in the hell is that ever fixed that brought a kid in the world that's gonna be part of AD divorced family within a matter of, you know, few years, hopefully. But it's it's not gonna fix anything. It's going to if nothing else, it will enhance. But it's not gonna fix. And it will destroy whether it's Children or play partners or life mates. Adding more people does not fix a broken relationship. Not at all, not at all. It can't. So while we're talking about things that can go wrong and and it's always a tricky thing, right? Because when we work with a a minority community, um, a neurotic minority, a gender minority, anything. We're very protective, right? And it it can be hard to talk about where things can go sideways because we don't wanna add to stigma or add to fear. But we're talking about technology. We're talking about Signal and WhatsApp and, um, telegram and dating websites. And I have to wonder, as somebody that you know is connected to the court system at times are there times when the paper trail becomes weaponized. Tell us, Tell us how you know we We talk a lot about how to protect our text messages from outsiders or photos from outsiders. But talk to us about how the threat can come from inside the relationship. At times I have this is not a couple that I work with. Um, professionally, this is just somebody that I know in in the lifestyle currently going through a divorce, and one partner has pulled out every single text message, uh, email all the pictures, all the stuff from the website and presented it to the jury trying to take the kids away from the other one, and it happens all the time. One will come around and say, Oh, I didn't want to do this. I was forced into it and look what they made me do. And usually it's more. One is the more dominant partner, the one who talks all the time or talks to the the other people. Let's face it, I don't have time to sit and chat. So when I had a partner, my partner talked to everybody and it made it look like he was the more dominant one, right? Well, I was part of it, but I just didn't have time to talk to everybody. And so some people use that and weaponize it like, Oh, look, they're the ones that's talking and they're the ones that's instigating and pushing it. I just went because they were gonna leave me if I didn't and they switched that narrative and they weaponize that narrative and try to take houses. Kids money went all along. They've been part of it, so it's It can be weaponized in so many different ways. So again we go back to do you have a strong foundation? Do you have the are you in the place in your relationship where it can handle something if it were to go wrong? Because it's if you if you think that you're gonna go into the lifestyle alternative sort of relationships and nothing's gonna go wrong, that's a That's a lie. Something's going to happen. It always does. And you have a way. You have to remember you agreed to do this together. You agreed that we wanted to do this for whatever reason. And now if something bad happens, we have to agree to fix it in a healthy manner. We can't weaponize it. And there's so many people out there who don't have that mature emotional mentality to be able to use it, to talk through it and to communicate, they use it to weaponize. So, wolf, I have a question for you. I am still back on. Key Party is not being about encryption, but go ahead. We have talked about like consent apps, right? Where if somebody is gonna have a one night stand, there's an app they can open up where somebody has to opt in. Yes, I am volunteering to have this one night stand. Are there any tech solutions for these sorts of situations. Are there any way for somebody who's having what they thought was mutual and private, weaponized against them to look at? Is there any sort of digital paper trail that can say No, really? This was mutual or No, really, this was something they opted into. Um, sure. I mean, yes, there are consent apps and I think about, like, consent I and others that we've we've looked into. But I One of the things that I think the technology breaks down, including consent apps and and Stephanie, you'll have to let me know if you agree to. This is almost all of them have a monogamous mindset, right? It's it's predicated around two people. So what does that mean? Like I do. I consent with my partner, and then my partner consents with the other person. I mean, how how many different times you have to consent? How would that play out? I don't know that the technology is really built with this, uh, non monogamy, uh, relationship model that we're talking about. I have my couples before events, or even when we first start. Hell, it could be if you're just gonna go on a date with somebody. I have them complete relationship contracts. You know, this is what we're doing. This is what we agree to. This is what you know, and they sign it and they date it, and I don't get it, but they have it. Right? That is a physical document saying no, this is what we agreed to. I signed it. You signed it. Now, you know, I don't know In the court system, does that hold up? I it's never been tested, Uh, and from my point of view, from with my group, that has filled them out. But to me, it seems like, you know, if you have that contract and we know what we're going to do when we know hey, and every party we went to, we've had this and we've talked about what we wanted to do and what we didn't want to do. And if that was presented, that seems like it's a good defence to me. I don't know, Stephanie. What do you think? I mean, on the surface, it sounds great. I, I think you know, coming out of domestic violence, sexual assault, there's always going to be the the concern about coercion. Um, and you're never really going to get around that there's no perfect solution to somebody saying, But in the moment I I didn't want to, and I didn't say I didn't want to, um, but thinking about relationship contracts, it would be kind of cool if those were a part of the website, because I know one of the things that I've had come up in some of my sessions with people Is somebody saying, Well, the person that I was talking to, the more vocal person said that their spouse was totally cool with XY and Z. But then in the moment I found out afterwards, they really weren't. And it would kind of be cool if, as a part of those profiles, as people were talking to each other and kind of negotiating or flirting or whatever they're doing that they could see, um, what the partners had agreed to, like, sort of, you know, I and is what I'm being told, what they've actually agreed to, or I mean I, I don't know. I don't know if the relationship contract could be a part of the app in some way or the site in some way, but it would be kind of cool if it was. But also my question is, Is both partners really there doing it or is it one partner doing it for both of them? How can we prove that? It's tricky, It's tricky. And then there are people out there who will make up fake relationships and get on these profiles. I mean, get on these websites and start fishing and then, you know, get into situations where they can do more harm than good, and it sometimes it can be physical harm. Sometimes it can be emotional, but that's where you have to have some. And I hate to be like this, but you have to have some sense, man, you know, you can't just go in there, ha have some common sense. And unfortunately, common sense is not common. And I know that. So hopefully there our steps put in measures put into place to keep people safe. And I know that the websites really try our dating websites really try and they make it to where you know, you fill out these profiles and then even in the profiles you talk about for for this event. This is what I wanna do. So they sort of have a a relationship contract type thing in there. But it's more for this is what we kind of want. This is what we were open to, and it's not specific, like we are not doing this or we are doing that type. So we talked about websites for finding each other. We talked about tools for chatting and having conversations. We've talked about tools for, uh, you know, consent. And of course, there's some weaknesses in each one of those I I like what you say about. We gotta have some common sense. It's almost always like the real security is not all the tech we built around it. The real security is common sense. But the the other thing that I hear is that the real challenge in polyamory is calendaring. Is that right? And B, what do you do there? Ok, I'm gonna I'm showing you guys and what I'm showing them is my date book. So this is this is the book that it's a it's a physical planner. There are 24 hours in a day. That's it. 24 you have work calendar. You have a dating calendar. I personally have four different platforms that I work through. So I have four different calendars and they don't talk to each other. And again, there's only 24 hours in a day. So being able to manage that time is next to impossible sometimes unless you're highly organised. And so I have if you're going to be in a polycule, so to speak. So I have a polycule. I have several poly cures, but one in particular that I'm thinking of, Um, these are these are friends of mine. These are not people I work with. I'm not talking about anybody I work with. These are just friends, but one polycule in particular. They have a shared Google calendar, and they put all of their stuff on it. And so when a new partner comes in, they get introduced to the Google calendar and everybody works off of that. But even then, there's still flaws in the Google calendar because what if somebody forgets something? You have to be dedicated to be in a poly relationship or to be a swinger or to be in any sort of lifestyle where you're gonna be dating other people because it does. We have lives. We work. We have Children And trying to manage all of those schedules. Oh, my gosh. It's just overwhelming. I feel like if I was ever to go down that route, um, a There'd be a lot of conversations with with my Stephanie, Stephanie, but BI I think we would need an executive assistant like we We would need an admin at that point in time just to help navigate all that. That's a great I. I should. There goes my next business executive assistance for swingers. Virtual virtual executive assistance for swingers. Perfect. Manage your dates. You know, in in the in the corporate world, we talk about on boarding and off, boarding through identity nexus management. And I know I always bring make really sexy stuff really boring by going. Let me introduce the new standard on that, but no, What I wanna know is like when a relationship ends, does that mean you gotta, like, remove it? Remember all the calendars that they're on and remove them, because I imagine you wouldn't want them to see that tomorrow. Well, it depends on now. Here's the thing. So I'm gonna use our trio as an example. So let's say that wolf, you and I have a relationship, right? And me and Stephanie have a relationship, and then we have the three. We have the the thropple. Right? So let's say that me and Stephanie broke up, but me and Wolf stayed together. So now we're all on the same calendar. But me and Stephanie just decided that we weren't working sexually. We're just gonna be great friends. But you know, we're not dating and we don't need our access to all that. But are you gonna remove her from the Cal or remove me from the calendar or whatnot from Wolf's calendar? So it's It's one of those if you have a a very huge poly polycule poly relationship. You have sometimes up to 15 to 20 people that you're you're navigating and working through. So you they may break up with you, but they didn't break up with these other people. So again there comes the trust. There comes the conversation and the communication and honestly, people in the lifestyle. Whatever lifestyle is has have as such elevate I this is I don't even we are such great communicators because we have to be. You have to do it when it comes to planning when it comes to negotiations, when it comes to consent, and so by nature we tend to be a little bit more communicative in in different areas. And so there's also that little level of maturity that some people don't realise just kind of comes with the territory of being in multiple relationships. At one time. I was interviewed by Nazanin Mo Ali a couple years ago because our world is, you know, are are the technology, then is almost a circle. We take turns talking to each other. And that was one of the things I said at the time was that I think the biggest takeaway that that vanilla or or monogamous heterosexual people could learn from the alt sex community was not like rope tying knot skills or any, like how to talk dirty. It's like literally how to talk at all, how to communicate clearly, how to seek clarification when you're not sure you're on the same page. Like the minutia of the conversations that happen before anything sexy or playful or fun can occur Absolutely. And so you know, and I Did I get this a lot. How do we How do you know that someone's clean? Ok, ST I STD whatever you know There. How do you know if they're clean? Well, number one, you ask for the results there, and that's a huge thing. They're like, Well, you want me to ask? Well, yeah, Why wouldn't you? I mean, I can pull up my shameless care app right here, and I can show you my results. I get them sent to my house and then I have a portal. You wanna see my results? Here they are. But that that open communication and so teaching people how to do that Because they're like, Well, aren't they gonna get offended? Well, no, they probably wanna know, too, if you have something or if you're clean. And so that communication has been very eye opening to help couples work through because they're like, I just don't wanna talk about it. Well, hey, you know, you walk up to a couple you're talking to, you decide that it's gonna go that direction. It's OK to say, Hey, you know what? I just wanna be really upfront and honest. I my partner and I get tested every 3 to 6 months. Our last test was such and such. Here's our results. Do you have yours that we can see just so we can make sure we're all on the up and up? Even that little bit of communication can cause so many walls to fall and so many opportunities to talk about all other things. It's It's amazing to me that we will put other people's genitals in our mouths, but we won't talk to them about it. Uh, very true. Very, very true. Uh, when I have a couple that wants to learn how to be more seductive, how to be more flirty, how to talk dirty, I usually start by telling them, just narrate what's already happening. Yeah, because you're doing it. You just don't know how to say it. But you made me curious because you mentioned an app. Shameless health, shameless care, seamless care. OK, so that you know, I feel like I know most things in our world. I try to stay abreast, but I have not heard of this. What is this? Tell me more. Yes. Shameless care is an at home ST testing um, programme so they send it to your house. And what I love about shameless care is if I were to go to my doctor and say, Hey, I need a full panel. They're gonna give me a A. I DS test HSV the the herpes. Maybe, you know, simple, um, syphilis. They're gonna do just, you know, the full panel. But the one thing they're not gonna do is they're not gonna swab your throat, and you can have gonorrhoea and chlamydia in your throat. And so, with shameless care, they send all that to you. You swab your throat and you pick your prick your finger, and then you pee in a cup and send it all off, and then they take care of it, and it comes. The results come to my portal. They also have you like it's a subscription based. If you wanna do subscription based, you can have them sent. If you're active in the swinging lifestyle active in any sort of sexual lifestyle, you can have it sent to you. You know, every three months, every six months, whatever. So it's going to come to you, and then you just do it at home and send it off. There's no going anywhere. And I think that that probably was the most revolutionary website app. Whatever we're gonna I mean, I don't know how to how to what to call it, but idea for alternative relationships because of it's embarrassing to go to your doctor and be like, Yeah, I slept with about 20 people in one day. We had this really great uh, orgy. And so, yeah, I don't know who's giving me what, But you know, it's gonna get tested anyway. And it's just, you know, one of those that your doctor is like, What? Are you OK? You know, they have all the shame and stigma associated with it. And then the reason why shameless care came about is because the founder, um, they're in the lifestyle, they're in their swingers. And what had happened was is all the several of his partners kept getting gonorrhoea, and he was being tested for gonorrhoea and didn't have it. And he and they kept saying, Well, we're getting it from somewhere, and we're just, you know, it has to be from you come to find out, he finally got one doctor to swab his throat and he had gonorrhoea in his throat. That's not gonna show up anywhere else. Wow. So anytime he was giving oral, he was passing it along to everybody. I am super comfortable talking about all sorts of kinky fuckery I When I'm doing media interviews, I say I will talk about any and every kind of sex. Except for one the kind that wolf and I have. I'm usually pretty open, but I will tell you, you said something that actually made me go like no hard limit. What's that? I'd have to prick my own finger. Yes, not a needle person, not a needle person. No. When I get a blood draw, I get topical lidocaine a couple days to prepare myself one single Valium and wolf to hold my hand. Mhm. Well, if you're going to be having relations with multiple people, you have to kind of get over some of that because number one you have to do blood tests. I mean, that's gonna have to happen unless you're not being very clean, clean cleanliness, clean about it. Hell, I don't know. I can't talk today, but be very clean about Hye. Hi. Thank you. Good Lord. I know I sound I mean, I am from Texas. Everybody knows that if you don't know it, you can tell from my voice. And sometimes at my my tongue, it sounds like cornbread and buttermilk when I talk and I really try to be so professional and not have that come out. But when I'm talking to friends, it just comes out. So yeah, it's you guys and so cornbread and buttermilk over here trying to talk. But we love corn bread. I know buttermilk. All right, so here's a question. I have the the term ethical. So in in the hacker community, we have, like the ethical hacker, and, uh and that is something we've argued about. Like, well, hacking is always ethical or oftentimes is ethical, right? Why would you need to add ethical to it? Doesn't it? Doesn't that imply some judgement? And so when I hear about ethical non monogamy, I'm like, Well, I mean, I would imagine like, Oh, not monogamy could be ethical. And so maybe it's because and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, obviously. But I suspect they both come from the nineties like, uh, ethical hacker came from hacking Expose, which I think was 1999. I'm assuming ethical non monogamy goes back to the ethical slot, which was in 1997 in the late nineties. We were always like, Wait, this is ethical. We're OK. Gen. X was very good about that. Uh, my question for you is does it matter that it's ethical, or is that shouldn't that just be implied? Well, you can be in a non monogamous relationship and it not be ethical. I mean, you could be cheating on your partner. Ethical non monogamy is again that umbrella term because there's one not negative or the negative connotation behind non monogamy to begin with, people think, Oh, well, you know, you're you're doing it just because you wanna cheat. It's just a a an ethical way to cheat, right or a good way to cheat. No, it's not. What they don't understand is the amount of preparation that went into it, the amount of communication that went into it, the amount of pain and tears. And and I can't tell you how many times that I've had my feelings hurt over something so silly, but in the moment it just hurts so bad because of emotions. And so making sure that the term ethical is in there really implies that everybody in that situation in that dynamic knows exactly what everyone is doing and why they're there. Which is the exact same thing that Wolf and I try to talk about when it comes to technology, too. What are you doing? Why are you doing it? Who are you doing it with? And what tools are you using when you do? I am so so glad that you carved out time in your weekend to come and talk to us, partly because I haven't gotten to see you since our conference in October and partly because what you have written and what you do is so important and so needed. And I mean I. I blurbed your book. I'll be the first one in line to say it's amazing, And I'm very grateful that people like you are out with me in the trenches on behalf of people that deal with such stigma and to make lives and relationships and dating and sex a little bit more safe alongside the fun. And I know that you are somebody that prioritises. Emotional safety, physical safety. And since we've gotten to know each other, you know, like technology safety too. Absolutely. So thank you. So so much for joining us. I'm excited that you were able to be with us today. Thank you for having me. I Well, you two know just how much I love you all so I could just go on for a whole day about that. If y'all don't know these two as they are just amazing humans. But I can't wait to see you guys. Hopefully we get together soon. And I appreciate you letting me talk cause I could talk for hours about ethical non monogamy because, you know, hell, it's what I do for a living. But it's also what I live in my real every day to day life. It's, uh, been a great conversation. We do. We need to find a city. We need to find an event. We need to find a time and place so we can hang out again. Until then, thank you. And to the listener. Thank you so much for tuning in to securing sexuality. Your source of information. You need to protect yourself and your relationships securing sexuality is brought to you by the bound Together Foundation A 501 C three nonprofit From the bedroom to the cloud. We're here to help you navigate what safe sex looks like in a digital age. Sure to check out our website securing sexual.com for links to all the topics we discussed here today. The book, the website, the awards, um, key part is my definition. I'm gonna sneak that in and everything else as well as our upcoming live events. And don't forget we are in a micro grant funding cycle for gender and identity affirming micro grants. Uh, we still have space for more people to apply. So if this is something that would benefit you or someone, you know, hit up the website for the link to the application and then join us again for more fascinating conversations about the intersection of sexuality and technology, have a great week 
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