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Called Out & Cancelled - Securing sexuality podcast episode 91

7/7/2024

 
CALLED OUT CANCELED DOXXING
Wolf and Stef just got back from New Orleans - a city known for daring and debauchery. So it's probably not a huge surprise that the #1 question they were asked by the folks they met in NOLA was, "What can I do to keep from getting called out when I say or do something that rubs others the wrong way?" Doxxing is a very real concern these days, and self-righteousness has been weaponized on both sides of the culture war. Wolf and Stef wax philosophical about this and discuss what, if anything, someone can do to keep from being canceled. ​
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Securing Sexuality is the podcast and conference promoting sex positive, science based, and secure interpersonal relationships. We give people tips for safer sex in a digital age. We help sextech innovators and toy designers produce safer products. And we educate mental health and medical professionals on these topics so they can better advise their clients. Securing Sexuality provides sex therapists with continuing education (CEs) for AASECT, SSTAR, and SASH around cyber sexuality and social media, and more.


Links from this week's episode:
  • PR Exec Fired After Racist Tweet, 'Ashamed' - The Guardian
  • Beyond Reproductive Choices to Cancel Culture as Good or Bad - Monash University 
  • Doxxing Online Harrassment Research - SafeHome
  • Doxing - Wikipedia
  • Cancel Culture - Wikipedia
  • Overton Window - Wikipedia
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Understanding Cancel Culture and Holding Individuals Accountable

Cancel culture has become a prevalent phenomenon in today's society, where individuals are swiftly ostracized and boycotted for their controversial opinions or actions. While cancel culture is primarily associated with the entertainment industry and public figures, its impact extends far beyond these realms. In this blog post, we will explore the implications of cancel culture on information security, delving into the potential risks and challenges it poses in safeguarding sensitive data and protecting individuals' privacy.
1. The Rise of Cancel Culture:
Cancel culture has gained momentum in recent years, driven by the power of social media platforms. With the ability to instantly mobilize and amplify voices, cancel culture has become an influential force capable of toppling careers, damaging reputations, and even causing financial losses. While its intentions often stem from the pursuit of justice and accountability, the impact on information security is a concerning aspect that demands attention.
2. Social Engineering and Doxxing:
One of the significant risks associated with cancel culture is the potential for social engineering and doxxing. Social engineering refers to the manipulation of individuals to disclose confidential information, such as passwords or personal data. Cancel culture can inadvertently create an atmosphere of fear and hostility, encouraging individuals to exploit personal information to harm those they disagree with. Doxxing, the act of revealing and sharing private information publicly, can lead to severe consequences, including identity theft, harassment, and even physical harm.
3. Online Vigilantism and False Accusations:
In the cancel culture landscape, accusations can spread like wildfire without proper verification or due process. This phenomenon can give rise to online vigilantism, where individuals take it upon themselves to expose supposed wrongdoers. Unfortunately, false accusations can have devastating consequences, including reputational damage, loss of employment, and even legal ramifications. Moreover, false accusations can divert valuable resources and attention from legitimate cybersecurity threats, leaving organizations vulnerable to real attacks.
4. Impact on a Culture of Open Dialogue:
The cancel culture's emphasis on silencing opposing viewpoints can hinder the creation of a culture of open dialogue, which is essential for information security. Healthy discourse and the ability to question prevailing ideas are crucial aspects of uncovering vulnerabilities and ensuring robust security measures. When individuals fear the repercussions of expressing unpopular opinions or reporting potential security flaws, the overall security posture weakens, leaving organizations more susceptible to cyber threats.
5. Implications for Privacy and Data Protection:
In the age of cancel culture, privacy and data protection face significant challenges. The exposure of personal information through doxxing can lead to severe privacy breaches and expose individuals to identity theft or online harassment. Additionally, the fear of having personal data exploited during social engineering attacks can erode trust in digital platforms, discouraging individuals from sharing necessary information for effective security measures. Balancing the need for transparency and accountability with the protection of individual privacy rights becomes increasingly complex in the cancel culture landscape.
6. Mitigating Cancel Culture's Impact on Information Security:
While cancel culture presents genuine concerns for information security, organizations and individuals can take steps to mitigate its impact. Some key strategies include:
  • Strengthening cybersecurity measures: Organizations should invest in robust security infrastructure, including firewalls, intrusion detection systems, and encryption protocols. Regular security audits and employee awareness training can also help mitigate potential risks.
  • Encouraging a culture of inclusion and open dialogue: By fostering an environment where diverse perspectives are respected and encouraged, organizations can create a more resilient security posture. This includes providing channels for anonymous reporting of security vulnerabilities without fear of retaliation.
  • Promoting digital literacy and critical thinking: Empowering individuals with the necessary skills to identify misinformation, practice responsible social media usage, and critically evaluate the sources of information can reduce the spread of false accusations and the subsequent impact on information security.


Cancel culture undoubtedly has far-reaching consequences beyond its immediate targets. When it comes to information security, the risks and challenges posed by cancel culture demand attention and proactive measures. By promoting open dialogue, strengthening cybersecurity measures, and prioritizing privacy and data protection, organizations and individuals can strive towards a more secure and resilient digital landscape amidst the cancel culture phenomenon.


Key Concepts:
  • Doxing and cancel culture
  • Origins of cancel culture
  • Holding individuals and organizations accountable
  • Overton window and societal norms
  • Online interactions and perception
  • Being mindful of online posts
  • Kindness as a security control
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Hello and welcome to Securing Sexuality. The podcast where we discuss the intersection of intimacy 

and information security. I'm Wolf Goerlich. 

He is a hacker. And I'm Stefani Goerlich. 

She is a sex therapist. And together we're going to discuss what safe sex looks like in a digital age.

And we're back. We're back in the air. We're back behind a microphone.

Did you miss us, everyone?

I hope so. I missed us, man. It's been a rough week. 

I wouldn't know I've been sleeping. 

Hm. That's true. That's true.

So we were in New Orleans for about a week at the Which conference was this?

National Organisation of Forensic Social Workers National Conference?

Yes. And so Securing Sexuality was a sponsor. So I got to do booth duty, and you got to go to all the great talks and learn. And listen, I did. I got to learn quite a bit. I got to meet some interesting new people.

Um, and I got covid.

So, you know, that's that's how this works now, these days, right?

Well, to be clear, we got home and we're fine for a few days, so I still think it was being home that caught us covid.

I mean, that could be, uh, it really in in this world today, who even knows how somebody gets covid you just it it just, you know, on a on a what bi annual basis, You're just gonna sleep for 20 hours a day and not be able to taste anything?

No, no, but I'm I'm sticking with this because from, like, Valentine's Day to the end of May, you tell me we weren't home for more than a few hours.

Uh, we were We were not really home for more than 72 hours. Valentine's Day until May.

Yeah, that a lot of travel. It was a lot of travel, but we were healthy. There's no sickness.

I mean, granted, I was masking on planes, but we're we're fine and that we're home for nearly four days and then boom.

I mean, it happens.

And and considering the fact that I got food poisoning in New Orleans, I mean, was I really healthy when I got home?

We don't know the world. We never know. But so as we're at this conference, we got asked a lot of things, right. We got asked some of the normal things.

Like, um, how do I protect my data?

What happens if someone's getting revenge?

Porn. I've got a client who's got this issue. I've got a client.

Who's that issue?

Um, why are you here at all?

This is a question I could ask quite frequently.

Yeah, that was the biggest question was we get this everywhere, I think.

Hey, you have sex in the name.

Why are you trying to talk to us?

Yes, yes, I think you know, in hindsight, we should have come up with something very clever about the name of this.

Oh, wait. We're coming up on our 100th episode. Maybe we should have a rename the podcast contest. There you go. There you go. Let's do that. Anyone who wants to send us in a a great name, we'll give you a gift certificate.

But But, I mean, if if it's the best name and we use it obviously, uh, void where prohibited blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Not sponsored the all the other legal things because we're making this up on the fly.

However, one of the questions that was coming up was around doxing and dog pilling and cancellation which occurred to me. There's this really interesting thing that seems to happen.

And I, I don't know if Stefani, do you agree with this?

I don't know if our audience will agree with us, but in general very, very generalised. It seems like, um, more left leaning people tend to ask us about dog pling are doxing and more right wing people tend to be very concerned about. If I say the wrong thing, I'll be cancelled.

Yes, although I feel like that's changing. I feel like, you know, the last 910 months have really just been horseshoe theory in action. And there's been a lot more overlap between those two than I might have expected this time last year.

Well, certainly from a political perspective, but it is always been interesting to me to see that sort of dichotomy, right?

And it's basically the same sort of thing.

You know, you you are online. You draw attention from people who have, uh, otherwise bad intentions, and they go after you. They they try to find all your personal information and release it and and create, um, at hominid attacks or physical attacks on you.

AKA doxing, which is, uh, you know, derived from the word of documents or docs.

Um, I don't know why my, uh, world likes an X, but, you know, picture element, pixel document pile docs who knows anyways, And then the cancel culture thing is is very, um it is very much the opposite side of things. And it's usually, you know, when I think cancel culture, I usually think like you are a celebrity getting cancelled or you're a business getting cancelled.

But generally, when people are asking about this, uh, and coming up to us at a booth, they're actually thinking about like, oh, people start attacking me or, you know, start withholding references or referrals or any number of things because of my opinions. So both seem to be like a form of dog pilling in my mind.

Yeah, I would agree with that. And I feel like there is this sort of cultural moment where we're debating what's holding people accountable versus what's punishing people for just disagreeing with you. And that's a nuanced thing. And I don't know that that's where you and I wanna go with this today. I don't know that there is a right or wrong answer.

I think each individual instance of doxing and dog piling probably has elements of both involved. Dog pling by definition means there's lots of people in the heat of the conflict. And so some of them probably genuinely think that you are wrong and should be held accountable for that. And other people probably just think you're wrong because you're not like them and therefore screw you.

And that is not something that you and I are going to be able to parse out.

But, um, we might be able to help people figure out what to do if they're concerned about these things. Absolutely, absolutely. But one of the reasons why I bring up that split was in doing research for this podcast.

I was very interested to see that, even though that was like my intuition going into this, that some of the research supports us, right?

Like the alt rights weapon of choice tends to be doxing, and the the left tends to come from a call out or call in culture, which is apparently from what I was some of the research I was reading the the source of cancel culture right the origin story of cancel culture. Tell me more about the origin story of cancel culture.

You, you I. I don't know that. I knew that there was an origin story and now I want to hear it.

Well, you know, again, this comes from this idea of call out or call in culture. It is originated as being a form of holding your your peers accountable. It evolved, and I'm I'm again. I'm summarising some of the research I was reading for this podcast. It evolved into this idea of holding, um, celebrity is accountable or holding businesses accountable.

This idea that because of the nature of social media because of the nature of online, uh, the online world that you know, organisations or individuals or groups that heretofore had as much power could have an asymmetrical influence on celebrities or on businesses based on what was going on. So and the conversation around cancel culture.

Um, based on anecdotal evidence and based on some high profile cases, you know, really came out of this idea that we're all holding each other accountable. And now that we're online, we can hold people of of power organisations with clout accountable and and make our voices known. So it's sort of like asymmetric punching up, uh, approach. Yeah. So that makes sense to me.

I think when you said origin story, I was, you know, settling in and getting my blanket and my hot cocoa. And I was ready for you to tell me the story of the very first ever cancellation. The very first ever dog pile.

Um, and I don't know if that's actually something that we know about.

Do we know when this first started or who the first, like target actor was?

All right.

Are you ready for this?

I mean, I'm always ready for a good story. I don't know that any of these stories are good, but I would think all right, if I was to think about, like, the earliest examples of cancer culture I don't know, social media has been around for a long time.

Uh, you know, I mean, long time in my lifetime, I guess I would say perhaps like the me too. Movement.

Uh, Harvey Weinstein.

Um, this this idea that there was a lot of allegations for a long, long period of time against him, but it's sort of solidified into a movement, and that brought with it sort of widespread condemnation of his, uh, of Harvey Weinstein's actions. So probably that would be an early example.

So, like 2016, 2017 ish, Uh, obviously, you know, there's a lot of comedians who got caught up in this, I think, like, uh, I don't know Roseanne Barr or Kevin Hart some of the things that they had said or done on their show.

And, of course, in Roseanne Barr's case, this was a couple years after Harvey Weinstein. This ended up getting her her show cancelled.

Right, so there. There's been a couple of different examples of this, this idea of sort of punching up, Um, but I think when most people ask us about cancel culture, they're not thinking, Oh, I might be the next Harvey Weinstein. Or I might be the next Roseanne Barr or Kevin Hart. I think they're more thinking about, like, just normal, everyday people getting attacked.

And this didn't this happen to you like you said something on Twitter once, and people reached out to the the owners of bound together counselling to get you in trouble. It wasn't even Twitter. It was Facebook and it was It was odd. It was something a local, a local venue here in Michigan was hosting, I don't know, some sort of protest or rally or qanon video screening.

I don't know what it was. It was completely inane. And I'm like, I also think this is a bad idea. I will probably not be going back to said venue. And it didn't seem like a big inflammatory statement. I wasn't making a a particularly unpopular political statement.

And yeah, somebody messaged, uh, my practise website through Facebook to let them know that their employee was a dirty commie that deserved to be fired.

And, you know, my boss is kind of a hard ass. My boss is is a taskmaster. But she's also pretty OK with my political opinions and my stances on where I choose to spend my money or not. So you know, that worked out OK, But it was It was interesting how quickly total strangers were willing to try and attack somebody's livelihood because of a difference of opinion.

And also for those who don't know you are self employed.

Indeed, I am the boss of which I speak.

So uh, I'm sure you had a good HR conversation with yourself. I'm on a P now.

Yeah, but what was interesting to me is I can find numbers about how many people get doxed. I cannot find numbers about how many people get cancelled, and I don't know if that's because, anecdotally, it's, you know, from the origin story on up. It's supposed to be celebrities. There's fewer of them.

I don't know if it's, you know, is situations like yours where someone reaches out to to you or rather, your your quote unquote, uh, management and tries to get you in trouble. I'm not I'm not really sure why that is.

But I, I was unable to find any sort of like, realistic statistics as to how many people get cancelled. I do have numbers about how many people get doxed, however, and how that's fascinating to me.

So what are those numbers and how do you know them?

Uh, there was a study done and recently this year that, uh, did a survey on this and collected a whole bunch of data and effectively found around 4% of people online reported being personally attacked and and docked in one way or another. So it's a significantly higher number of people who are being doxed than people who are being cancelled.

At least that is my assumption, because if it was around 4% I would be able to find that number.

What I think is fascinating is how how do we know this, like, how would we know who's being cancelled unless it becomes one of those stories that makes the news?

I remember years ago, this woman, I think she worked in PR, or marketing was getting on a plane and flying to a country in Africa. And she posted something definitely tone deaf and a little racist. And then it was like ha ha ha and hit post on her Facebook and then put her plane or her phone in aeroplane mode.

And by the time she landed, her entire world had blown up like her little racist aside had gone viral. People had contacted her boss. The company had already announced her termination before she even landed like it went crazy in the span of about 8 10 hours. But unless it's and I actually think they wrote, she wrote a book about that experience.

But I, I think that unless it's one of those cases that goes so viral and becomes so public that everybody hears about it, how would we even know how often situations like the angry Facebook or messaging somebody's boss results in somebody losing their job or not?

I mean, how would we even collect that data?

Yeah, you know, that's probably even a better earlier story of cancel culture. I think the story you're talking about was in in 2013.

Uh, Justine was her name. She was APR executive and her her tweet was something like, I'm going to Africa. I hope I don't get AIDS.

Um, and yes, everything blew up, and by the time she got to Cape Town, she was done. So that was that was 2013.

Now, that was the early days of of social media. It was certainly the early days of Twitter. Twitter was only out for a few years by then.

And I, I think this is gonna sound terrible.

What is the What is the the window?

You're always talking about the Overton window?

Yes. I think the Overton window has shifted because if someone said something like that today. I don't think it would have the same result.

Uh, for better or for worse.

I mean, it was a pretty shitty thing to say. It was a terrible thing to say, but I also think, uh, social media has grown in number of users and, unfortunately, grown, used to people saying terrible things. So do we need to explain. The Overton window is I. I know that that's something that I introduced to you.

But is that something that you think most people would be familiar with?

Well, go for it. And then I'm gonna ask Answer your question about how we know how many people are docked.

OK, uh, so the Overton window is this idea about what is normal and accepted at any given time. Culturally. And if you kind of imagine like AAA Y axis, you know, one end to the other 0 to 10, whatever Red to blue.

Um, picture the spectrum of your choice in your mind. The Overton window is what's considered normative on that spectrum. And the idea is that particularly outrageous behaviour or particularly like super super conservative and restrained behaviour becomes normalised or people become so desensitised to it that the window of what is normal moves. So if you think about like, um, well, let's let's use the racist language example.

What was normal and accepted in the American 18 fifties to 19 fifties is not acceptable now. And that's because, um, we became much more aware of our use of language, aware of the impact things had people were held accountable for inappropriate language and the Overton window of what is socially acceptable and normed has shifted from where it was when that accept, when that behaviour was acceptable.

So we're seeing that now a lot with, um, language around gender identity, right?

And it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just an idea of, um, how to conceptualise what's normal at a given point in time.

So when we talk about the Overton window shifting, we're saying something has happened that has moved society's idea of what's cool and OK in one way, one direction or another, Um, because of either more exposure or less exposure, right?

Right.

And so one of the things that is is very difficult to understand with cancer culture is what is going to be acceptable and what is not at any given period in time because, you know, there's a lot of things going on, right?

Like, is it a slow news day?

Is it Is it something that enough people will pick up and and comment on, or will it be pretty much ignored?

There's a lot of different factors in there that determines whether or not something will get will get picked up and will spread.

So, speaking of spreading, you said you would tell me, how do we know how often this happens?

How do we get those those numbers?

So someone needs to study it, right?

This is this is the thing someone needs to do. Do a survey on it.

Uh, there is a a group out there that did a study into the doxing side of things. Which is why we have better numbers than doxing.

Um, what is this group called?

Where is your name?

Safe home?

Did the the search and safe home went and spoke to more than 1000 adults and asked them if they were docked now safe home. Could have easily said, Hey, were you cancelled and we could have gotten, um, a a better idea as to whether or not that, uh, you know, the the comparison is things, but they specifically looked looked at docs.

And this is where that number of 4% of Americans which you can extrapolate to around 11 million people, uh, again, based on an end of 1000, uh, they also found that more than 90% of Web users were concerned about doxing today.

Um, so there's there's a high degree of concern there, Um, and seemingly a more clear signal of how many people get, uh, get attacked. That is fascinating to me. It also makes me wonder how common these ideas and these concepts have become. Because when you and I are at events like we were at New Orleans, we tend to get one of two extremes.

Either How do I protect myself from this or the wait?

What is that called again?

And so it's curious to me that the study was, you know, asking people. Have you had this experience because I'm actually still kind of curious. How many average, like non super hyper online, the way you and I tend to be people in America actually understand these terms or understand the the way in which they're used.

Like I would be curious to know how many of those us was like, Yeah, I have been docked because, you know, there was that news article that said that target, like there was a data leak and my my my info got out in the target leak. And I wonder how many people, like our parents age, are conflating that with doxing.

Uh, it's possible it's possible, but Doxing and really seemed to have taken off from looking at Google trends. Royce seemed to take off in the public consciousness around 2018 and and remained pretty high up until recently. So I it's possible for sure.

But your your point about the the data is is a good one, right?

And, you know, spoiler alert for those listening next week, we're gonna have someone who can help us navigate what to do when your personal data gets lost like the target example.

Um, but your your point there is is really good, right?

Just because your information is out there does not necessarily mean you're docked. It has to be the combination of someone searching for it or purchasing it off the dark web, Um, and collecting it together and putting into a package and then taking action against you with that information that really, you know, determines whether or not someone's been doxed.

Yeah, when I think about it, it it feels like the intent is really what defines doxing. If somebody takes your using the example you gave about me, you know, my Facebook posts and repost those somewhere which happens all the time. Sometimes people like Oh my God, that was a hilarious Twitter post. I'm screen capping it and I'm posting it on Reddit.

And sometimes people are like, Oh my God, that was a horribly offensive Twitter post. I'm screen capping it and I'm posting it on Reddit.

You know, the actions are the same.

Uh, in both instances, they're taking information that the poster originally put out there whether or not it becomes doxing really depends on what the goal of that repost is.

Is it to be like this person so clever?

Let's laugh at their joke versus pointing the online mob in the direction of a person with the goal of impacting them in offline ways.

That, to me, is what makes doxing doxing versus a data breach or just sharing something somebody else posted. Not everybody likes it when their online posts get Reshad. You know there are coming back to the accountability piece right now.

There are lots of Twitter accounts and instagram accounts that are dedicated to exposing some form of bad actor or another, you know, like environmental, um, your responsibility or racist language or any number of pet causes. And if somebody takes a something that I publish and they repost it there, just because I don't like that doesn't mean I've been docked.

But if somebody is taking personal information and using it to impact you in offline ways to influence your career or your sense of safety or any number of other things, that to me is what makes doxing doxing.

Is that accurate in your mind, or am I splitting hairs?

I. I think that's I think that's accurate.

Your information is out there, right?

One of the earliest and most common things we always say in the show is, you know, be careful what you post right live at what's out lied limit what's available, and that can be incredibly difficult when we start talking about data brokers.

Um, because, you know, the data brokers are collecting all this data from the targets and from the retailers and from your bills and from everything else and collecting it effectively.

Data brokers are doxing you for people?

Um, unfortunately, I, I don't think they would like that way of me explaining it. But effectively, they are creating documents on you and then making those documents available for resale. And I think there's something like 2 3000 available, uh, data brokers out there right now.

And, of course, you can get on sites like delete me and remove yourself from a few 100 of these data brokers. So there there are things you can do.

But yes, your information is is out there similar to what you're saying, I guess about cancel culture. Your your social media posts are out there. And you know, there's always good guidance around making sure that you have, you know, locked your counts down. Only share with your friends, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Uh, but certainly for people whose very livelihood depends on being very public, like some therapists, like maybe someone I know who who does need to put some content out there so people can find them to, you know, subscribe or to sign up or to, uh, do any number of different things. Buy books from, uh, you know, you. You You are balancing these.

These two urges, right to stay quiet, to stay private, to also be public. And to be promotional.

Yeah, That's part of why I've always been really clear about the fact that I am not a content creator. I am an individual contributor who happens to occasionally contribute stuff that is publicly available.

Um, and I know that that might seem like an arbitrary distinction, but I don't use my social media to, you know, intentionally create, like, edutainment videos or to do what a lot of my peers do and that I respect them for doing because it takes a lot of time and a lot of energy to be constantly generating new informational content for people.

But where I see people getting cancelled is often not in the professional things that they are doing with thoughtfulness and intentionality. It's those one off asides that, um, probably sounded funny in their head. But when you lose tone and intonation and relationship right when something is being seen by 50,000 people instead of by your five friends who might still go.

Wow, that was a shitty thing to say. You need to rein that in and check yourself.

Um, it lands differently. And I think that people are losing track of the fact that voices carry these days voices carry. I think that's a really good way to put it. The other thing that I wanted to ask you about this All right.

So let's say we all understand the voices carry and let's say that we're also thinking, you know what?

Like I'm gonna be careful what I say, I'm not. Maybe I'm not gonna make some jokes, I would normally say, or like some things I might normally like. Here's a question I have for you if Internet vigilantism, which I would in this conversation say, is the doxing and the cancel culture if Internet vigilantism again, both of these aimed at everyday people, not the powerful.

If this has a chilling effect on our speech and our behaviour, does that mean, in fact, that it's a one, though?

So I'm super conflicted because on one hand there are absolutely forms of speech and ideas that I strongly disagree with. And I would prefer to not be platformed right like I can I I We all including myself, have the private list of people that we just wish would shut up. And sometimes those people are really harmful, like individually. Collectively, they are doing harm.

And so one of the things that I wrestle with is how do we balance that?

How do we protect this idea of?

You know, the best remedy for for bad speech is more speech versus this idea that maybe the people that are bad speakers just need to stop. And I think that socially, we're in this sort of time of of change where historically maybe we would have been more in the line of If I disagree with you, then it's my job to offer a counterpoint not to shut you down.

And now it seems like the idea has become. If I disagree with you, it's my moral obligation to shut you down, and I don't know where that line is, because there are things that are just reprehensible and should be shut down.

But also who gets to be the arbiter of that who gets to be the one whose moral standard wins the day Because I know what I wish I could hear and see less of.

But is my opinion the one that matters?

I am I the one that ultimately gets to decide, and if so, how?

Um, there isn't really one good answer. And I think that this is something that a lot of you know, the couples that I work with have to navigate to this idea that it's not just my opinion that matters anymore. We have to be able to find nuance. We have to be able to hold space for our own discomfort, our own anger.

At times, it's OK to be angry at things that you find repugnant.

But where is our ability to impact that ethically and morally like?

And and and the old adage is my right to extend my fist ends at your nose, which makes a lot of sense when all communication was happening in newspapers and town squares.

But what does that look like online?

You know, how do we quantify harm?

How do we decide where my nose is when you're on another continent for me to begin with, and there's not really one good answer here. And it's one of those ethical things that I sit with along with my own frustration and distress tolerance on a daily basis.

Yeah, I. I don't know that we're going to have a good answer for that, but I do think, uh, reading your own social media with a critical eye or what some people are doing where they have someone else, you know, like a sort of like a council of friends who reads this social media and give some feedback is is a good idea.

This is one of the things that I came away from, uh, recently when I was at another event and I was at a privacy workshop and it was, uh, called self doxing or self cancelling where you you look at your messages and you try to read them with, like, the worst possible intent.

Or you look at some of your friends messages and try to read them with the worst possible intent, and you give feedback right so that people can start a more appropriately perhaps, you know, dialling in their humour. dialling in their message.

Uh, and you know, I. I think about that in terms of not going too far, because we don't wanna be stifled. And you don't want to have a chilling effect.

But also just having a a good sort of self awareness about how you're coming across in online spaces when you pair that with some of the privacy aspects, cleaning up your data, giving off data brokers, not exposing things that you shouldn't have and some of the security aspects having good account maintenance and security and all those sort of things you know, I think we can have a path towards reducing the likelihood of someone getting doxed or cancelled for me.

I think this is where kindness just becomes a good rule of thumb, right?

You're never going to agree with everybody. Not everybody is going to like you. I was having a conversation earlier today where I used one of my favourite therapy lines, which is one of the best things about being an adult is that we're not obligated to give everybody a valentine, and that's cool.

It is OK if somebody doesn't want to give you a valentine, but if you are posting online and moving through the world with an effort to be kind by centering kindness.

This is, I'm going to say less likely, because when you're a kind person, you can disagree with somebody without wanting to destroy them. And when you're a kind person, you can see something that really upsets you and really rubs you the wrong way, but still hold space that maybe that wasn't the other person's intention and extend them a little bit of grace.

And when you're a kind person, you think a little bit more about what you're saying and posting, and you don't go for the low hanging, edgy humour because it might be easy and it might get a laugh. But it's not kind. And so you know, we're never going to fix this.

There are always going to be people who very strongly disagree with us and with each other, and that would feel that the world would be better if everybody agreed. And I include myself in that the world would be better if everybody thought the way I did. I'm sure of it, even though I'm married to somebody who disagrees with me frequently and I love and adore him.

Clearly, the solution here is for everybody to just think like me. Yes. No. But if I try to be kind, then I'm less likely to say and do things that expose me to being attacked. And I'm less likely to attack other people when I don't like what they say.

Did you notice the silence of me biting my tongue?

Oh, I was just watching the blood drip down your chin. Yeah.

No, you get that tongue hard.

Hopefully, people know I'm joking. I I'm I'm pretty OK, but I don't think everybody should be like me. The world would be a boring place.

Well, as as I want to say, kindness is one of the original security control. So I like that. Be kind. Be considerate and just be conscientious about what you're putting out there with that. I think we've come to the end.

Oh, what a lovely way to wrap up So often our episodes end up with, There's nothing you can do. And it's all terrifying. And this feels warm and fuzzy. Be kind. It won't solve everything. But kindness does help. Absolutely. With that. Thank you so much for tuning into securing sexuality. Your source of information you need to protect yourself and your relationships.

Securing sexuality is brought to you by the bound Together Foundation 501 C three Nonprofit From the bedroom to the cloud We're here to help you navigate safe sex in a digital age. Be sure to check out our website for links to more information about the topics we've discussed here today that's securing sexual.com.

You also find out information about our upcoming live events and join us again for more fascinating conversations about the intersection of sexuality and technology. Have a great week.

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