    
Securing Sexuality is the podcast and conference promoting sex positive, science based, and secure interpersonal relationships. We give people tips for safer sex in a digital age. We help sextech innovators and toy designers produce safer products. And we educate mental health and medical professionals on these topics so they can better advise their clients. Securing Sexuality provides sex therapists with continuing education (CEUs) for AASECT, SSTAR, and SASH around cyber sexuality and social media, and more. Links from this week's episode: Stephanie Spiegel, LinkedIn Article 
Exploring the Intersection of UX Design and BDSM, Application of Design Thinking, Professional Domination, Power Exchange Relationships, and Sex TechAs technology continues to evolve, so too does the way we interact with it. User experience design (UX) is a field of study that focuses on how people interact with technology, and how to make those interactions more enjoyable and efficient. In recent years, UX designers have begun exploring the intersection between user experience design and BDSM – an acronym for bondage, discipline, dominance/submission, and sadomasochism – in order to create tools that can help destigmatize sex work. The goal of UX designers working in this space is to create tools that allow people who engage in BDSM activities to do so safely and without fear of judgment or stigma. This includes creating apps that allow users to find partners who share their interests; websites where users can discuss their experiences; and even virtual reality simulations that allow users to explore different scenarios without putting themselves at risk. By providing these resources, UX designers are helping destigmatize sex work by making it easier for people who engage in BDSM activities to do so safely and without fear of judgment or stigma. In addition to providing resources for those engaging in BDSM activities, UX designers are also creating tools that can help protect sex workers from exploitation. For example, some apps provide a platform where sex workers can connect with clients directly while ensuring their safety by verifying the identity of both parties before any transactions take place. Other apps provide a safe space for sex workers to discuss their experiences anonymously while also allowing them access to resources such as legal advice or mental health support services if needed. By providing these types of resources, UX designers are helping ensure the safety of sex workers while also helping destigmatize the profession as a whole. Finally, UX designers are exploring ways in which technology can be used as an educational tool when it comes to BDSM activities. For example, some websites provide detailed information about different types of play styles as well as safety tips for engaging in them responsibly; other sites offer tutorials on how different pieces of equipment should be used properly; and still others offer virtual reality simulations where users can explore different scenarios without putting themselves at risk physically or emotionally. By providing these types of educational resources through technology-based platforms, UX designers are helping ensure that those engaging in BDSM activities do so responsibly while also helping destigmatize the practice overall by making it more accessible and understandable for everyone involved. Overall, user experience design has become an important tool when it comes to destigmatizing sex work through its exploration into the intersection between user experience design and BDSM activities. Through creating tools such as apps connecting partners safely; websites offering anonymous discussion forums; virtual reality simulations allowing users explore scenarios safely; and educational materials teaching proper use techniques – all available through technology-based platforms – UX designers are helping ensure the safety of those engaging in BDSM activities while also making sure they feel comfortable doing so without fear or judgment from society at large. Key Concepts:
Hello and welcome to Securing Sexuality, the podcast where we discuss the intersection of intimacy and information security.
I'm Wolf Goerlich. He's a hacker. And I'm Stefani Goerlich. She's a sex therapist. And together we're going to discuss what safe sex looks like in a digital age. And today we're joined by Stephanie Spiegel, a UX designer and newly pro dominatrix, who posted this amazing article to LinkedIn. So anyone who knows me knows that I'm really into UI, I'm really into UX, I'm really into design. And of course, anyone who knows Stephanie knows that kink in this entire area is her area of expertise. And here was this article on LinkedIn that talked about how Stephanie Spiegel's work in the dungeon has influenced her approach to user experience. So obviously we had to have you on. Welcome, Stephanie. Thank you so much for letting me stalk you on LinkedIn and for being willing to come on and talk about your work with us. Thank you for having me. Let's start with the question that I'm sure so many are asking. What is UX? What is user experience design? To me, user experience is how people are interacting with digital products. Well, it could be physical products too, but for me, in my world, I'm specifically designing how people are interacting with websites and apps. And the user interface is the way that everything looks. And so I was partially joking, but also partially serious. I needed your eye. Yeah. So I made this call, I open up the link for my calendar. The link doesn't work. My browser crashes. Then I'm stuck in a loop where it says redirecting, redirecting. Then like, forget it. I reboot my computer and then my computer is like, oh, thank you for rebooting. We can apply updates. And so finally, 12 minutes later, I get in the podcast and I can only imagine poor Stefani going, oh, he probably locked himself out again with this security. Is that the sort of thing that you guys look like the overall user experience in a particular app or in a particular workflow? Yeah, especially those instances where a user is having trouble utilizing the product in the way that it's intended. That means that something is going wrong with the user experience and the flow of the product doesn't have enough affordances for the user to know its intended goal and to get there efficiently. And there's another one of my favorite words affordances. I gave a whole talk on cybersecurity affordances and how to just make it feel like, oh, I should click this button or I should open this door. Is the way that it should naturally work. You want people to get in and interoperate with what you're building. And it can be really tricky as a designer because you know what everything is supposed to do. So it requires a lot of empathy and change in perspective to really step back from your designs and really think, you know, would another person know what this button is intended for? I know what it's intended for, but does everyone else? And I love how you are able to connect that to your dominatrix work. I mean, as a clinician, as somebody that works with a lot of kinky couples or couples that are in power exchange relationships, that communication piece around expectations, that communication around when you say this is what you want, what does that really mean? Or when you say this is off limits, what are those parameters really? I was delighted. I'm not as big of a design geek as Wolf is, but I'm a BDSM and kink geek. And so I was so delighted to see your article. And I hadn't really thought about that intersection before. And I would love to hear how your work as a user experience has influenced your interactions with your submissives. And then conversely, how your work as a dominant influences how you design things. Yeah, so it's very enmeshed as time has gone on. I really try my hardest to apply design thinking to all of my sessions. But then as I continued on booking sessions and forming more clients, I realized that my relationship with submissives was giving me a greater appreciation for the empathy involved in designing each session. So it started off with I was applying design thinking in terms of preliminary research and also the research required post-session as a form of aftercare. But then I found what was going on in the middle in terms of the ability to form a story and have a well-paced session as well as really focusing on developing a trust with each submissive in order to optimize their experience. Got a huge perspective shift on all that on just how important it can be because subspace is so vulnerable. And no one is going to reach that if they don't have trust from the person providing them the experience, i.e. the dong. But if you're looking at it as a product designer, the person that you're supposed to trust is the person building it for you and designing the experience. And it's very much similar to the way I describe my work as a UX designer to people. As if I handed an Android to an iPhone user, they're immediately not going to trust it because it's unfamiliar to them. They're just going to assume when I click something because they don't understand the affordances that it just doesn't work. They don't have the years of trust behind it. And it's very similar between my relationship with submissives. In order for them to get the high that they're looking for, they have to be able to enter a state of mind that requires them to trust me to get them there and do it safely. We talked to the CEO of Relay recently and he was describing how they've set their application up for that, right? Once you start out, it doesn't ask too much because the trust isn't built. Over time, they ask a little bit more when the trust gets a little bit higher and really allow the person to build that relationship. And I'd never thought about it. And when you're describing the trust relationship you build in a scene, I can see that same sort of parallel. It's very difficult to establish trust, either through a product or through play. Yeah, and I joined the scene as a submissive. I was not a pro submissive. That's a whole other thing. I have experienced being on the other side where essentially I'm the user and I'm experiencing someone designing something for me. And I have been in a state of mind before where I'm not going to reach that vulnerable state that we all want me to get there because I don't trust the person. Therefore, I'm not going to have the best experience in comparison to once before where I'm playing with someone that I really do trust. So BDSM has really impacted my appreciation for design in that way. So what does that look like in practice? If you are negotiating, setting up a scene with a client, what does your process in that way look like? The way I do it is I have them fill out an application. In that application, I go over all the different things that I offer and they can check off what they're interested in. But I also make sure to ask them, how do you want to feel? When I first started in this scene and I didn't have an application that was quite this thorough, a lot of people check off humiliation, but you don't actually know what that means. There are so many different ways to humiliate someone. And I have made mistakes before with that. I've humiliated someone in the way that they didn't want to be humiliated. So now I'm very thorough in my application. And to that, that communicates to the person like, oh, she really cares. She's asking all of the questions that are pushing me to further understand what submission means to me and what I need to get there. And also most importantly, I'm asking what's going to happen after the scene. It doesn't end when the session is over. Once we're done playing. How do you want me to take care of you? How do you feel comforted best? Do you need time to hang out? Do you need time for me to tell you you did a good job? Do you want me to call, like text you after the session, once you get home or the next day? I had a client recently say that actually he only wants to play for the first 30 minutes and then he really just wants to have a glass of wine with me for the next 30. I was just like, oh my God, amazing. And I use that time to really get to know him better and figure out what his goals are of a submissive. That just deepened our level of trust and humanized me as a provider to him. And he, you know, every time comes back to me with a better and better experience because of it. Talk to us about your work in the corporate world in the business settings that involve you to kind of undertake those same sort of client or customer negotiations, but without the degree of authority perhaps that comes from being the dominatrix, the sex worker, the person willing, the person that is able to say, no, I don't think we're going to click. I'm not a good fit for you. How do you negotiate user experience when you are working with a client you can't necessarily just pass along to somebody else? I'm just trying to think like in terms of user research that I've done and user interviews that I've done, the most of the interviews have been, I'm going through them and still picking, you know, which one makes sense in terms of the persona that we're going for. So also there, you know, clients that are coming to me, it's due to a certain persona and I attract a certain kind of client because of the product that I offer. So it's very similar in that sense that we are still sort of turning people away. You know, you can adjust and try to make it accommodating for people, but at the end of the day, if you want your product to be successful, you do have to say no to people. Similarly, as you would as a dominatrix, you can't offer it all and people have specialties. I know, you know, previously when I was working at Afterglow, we would make a point to, you know, interview the clients that really were falling in within the persona that we were going for because that was the market that we wanted to expand on. And those were the people really worth talking to the most. There is sort of a kind of authority behind designing a product and figuring out, you know, who is the client you're trying to market to. But, you know, my first job where I was doing user research, I was working at an ethical porn company. I designed their website and at that time I wasn't in the BDSM scene. Now I know looking back, I would do it very differently. Making user research on such intimate subjects for people just requires so much communication and sensitivity around everyone's individual experience. So even though, yes, as a dominatrix, you're negotiating, keeping in mind that you have this sense of power, I guess, within the relationship and the dynamic that you're forming, I really believe that negotiations and when research is going on on both sides, the playing field should be even or else, you know, people aren't going to be honest with one another. And that's why you hear within the BDSM scene, you know, the submissive really does have the power here. One of the things I think about is boundaries, right? So in your article, you talk about communication, but you also talk about boundaries and your ability to set boundaries has become clear. Having sat in on a number of UX research projects, both as, hey, I'm an observer and I'm going to hear because I reflect a certain persona. And the other side is I have been invited in the listening side. Oftentimes I see people wanting to call out of the line, so you got to bring them back. And as the invited side, this is going to shock you, my wife, Stefani. Sometimes I don't want to follow the script. I want to just wander off and see what I can explore and see what different buttons things do. So can you talk to me about how that boundary setting has become more dialed in with your work? I think what you're getting at is it made me very focused within my own ability to stay on track when I'm trying to find out the most important things. And then, you know, it's a give and take regarding, you know, should I use this opportunity to learn a little bit more about this other subject or should I use this designated time to really find out the most important, you know, the MVP, essentially? In terms of boundary setting, I also just think within being a working professional and dealing with colleagues, being a dominatrix, you're asked so many questions and so many clients are constantly, you know, reaching out to you to session that are just not going to be a good fit. And you get used to just saying no. And it's really empowering. Really just say, you know, this is the thing that I have to offer and this is what I do and I'm not going to do this other thing for you. It has really made a difference in my perception of my ability and my place within the work within the workforce. You know, people are going to ask you to do more than you want to or ask you to do something that you don't do or is not your specialty and or get upset because maybe you did do it and they knew that it wasn't your thing. So I definitely have had clients that have come to me asking things of me that like are not my not my forte. I tell them that I make that very clear. I don't have any experience doing this. So like, bear with me. We're like both going to be learning a lot from this. And then I've had clients actually get upset with me because it wasn't, you know, the experience they were looking for. So that is, you know, I'm able to provide that to the boundary setting and the expectation setting within the workplace, which I think has been really valuable. So this is where I have to ask as the designated non-technical audience intermediary. When you two say MVP, what do you mean? What are you talking about when you talk about MVPs? We all want like all of the cool little features and make everything so different. But really, you're trying to just have like the bones of a product in order to push it out and make it live. And then you're supposed to do research on, you know, the standard bones of it and then add another feature, change it up a little bit and slowly have that back and forth of I'm going to add this thing and then I'm going to do research and then I'm going to iterate and continue on like that. Because if you add way too many features at once without any research in between, you could lose a lot of money. And that's so important because you could waste a ton of time on ideas that may seem cool to you, but just don't work in the real world. Minimum viable product is something I live and breathe all day long. I mean, yeah, every time I'm building anything, it's like how what's the most important thing here? But how does that translate into your pro dom work? I find that I try to have certain goals for each session. You know, I try to touch on you're going to tell me what is it this you're going to tell me all the things that you want to do with me. And then we're going to pick like one or two to do during this session and see how those work and see how they make you feel. And then we're going to work on them for the next session and see how far can we push that for the next session. And then once we master that together and go after that the feeling that we're desiring, we're able to add on more features just as we would for a digital product. So what does a typical scene with you look like if somebody were to want to book time with you? What would you say your areas of specialty are? What do you think you give to them that perhaps somebody that doesn't have the design thinking background that you have wouldn't? My specialty is really impact play. And I like to create a narrative around that. The thing that inspired me to become a dom was actually taking a Florentine flogging workshop. Once I like mastered, I mean, you'll never master any of these things, you're always going to be like a lifelong student, especially with flogging. But once I did that, I was like, oh my god, this is so much fun. And it's my go to and the thing that I'm most drawn to in terms of implements and play. But around that, I like to incorporate a narrative of humiliation. So I can give you an example of a broad idea. I can't get into specifics, obviously, with one of my clients, but he is just very interested in humiliation, and I give him a bunch of tasks throughout the session, I go over submissive positions that make him really vulnerable. And if he doesn't do them at the speed or pace that I'm interested in, or he often forgets them, you know, forgets them quotation marks, then he'll get punished. I love incorporating puppy play for those that are just interested in humiliation in general. One, because I think it's adorable, but it's also just incredibly amusing. I'm going to be showing out like puppy puzzles, and I'll use them as furniture as I'll sit on a couch. Do you guys know what puppy puzzles are? I do not. So as she's asking about MVP, I'm wondering what is puppy play and puppy puzzles? Puppy play is just essentially encouraging your client to pretend that they're a dog and do a bunch of dog like things. It's actually not that common for clients to reach out to you for puppy play, but it's very common for clients to reach out to you wanting to engage in humiliation. So I like to just use it within that narrative. I haven't had a client that actually identifies as a puppy and feels like in their submissive headspace, they relate to a dog. I just use it as a way to embarrass them essentially. And a puppy puzzle is a toy that you can use for an actual dog, and you hide treats in it, and it's supposed to slow them down from eating, and they use their nose to move around different objects within the puzzle to reach the treats underneath. So I'll sit on a couch and I'll have my heels up on his back while he is going through the puppy puzzle and eating up the M&M's that I hid for him. So I'll do things like that, and if you didn't do it fast enough or to my liking, I'll give him an excuse to crawl over to the cross and I'll bind him to the cross and then do Florentine flogging and a lot of sensory play. So in general, I would say my clients would call me more of a soft, sensual, yet sadistic dog. Where do you want to go with this? I know that when I talk about this podcast or our conference to people in my world, they go, security and sex or technology? There's a lot of confusion about where the middle of those vents are. And I have to imagine you get similar questions. First of all, you posted this on LinkedIn. What sort of response did you get when you posted on LinkedIn about being a pro dom and how that informs your design work? I was really hoping to speak to more progressive companies, specifically within sex tech, that would want to work with a sex worker due to my experience because they see value in my pro dom experience and think that my ability to navigate such sensitive topics with users would make me an asset to their team. So that's the goal. But I also plan on remaining and practicing BDSM and being a pro dom on the side. I don't think I will ever be a full time dom. I do really love it, but it is so exhausting. It impacts my personal life in probably ways that most people wouldn't expect. I'm in a BDSM community. I live in my little bubble of left leaning poly folks. So I don't find a lot of resistance in terms of people being judgmental, but it definitely can just be very exhausting being a service provider. And then having to navigate people wanting to provide an experience for them as well in your personal life. Trying to find a balance with all of that between listening to people's needs all day and then being able to do it for the people that you love can be tough. With technology, it's oftentimes the same, right? There's a lot of technology I could do. When I'm done working, I don't know that I want to spend all the time setting it up around the house. Yeah, exactly. Well, let's keep it all low tech. Is it the same way for you? Yes, it definitely can be. And it at times has taken away some of the shimmer, I guess you could say, of practicing it in my personal life. There's also a sense of it can be hard for me to reach a similar head space when it's someone that I'm dating and not a client. And I think there's a distance that I create between my clients. And then to do it with someone where it's more of a sexual connection, that can be so difficult for me to get past that hump, I guess. No pun intended, but yeah. You mentioned that you want to stay in sex tech. What's your ideal role? Where do you want to go from here? Yeah, so I would love to work on apps for couples specifically, but really within the realm of sexuality in general. One of the first UX projects I ever did was an app for couples. It's actually in my portfolio. It was an app for couples that presented them with all different ideas that they could match on. But then once they match on the item, it would link to their calendar to then schedule it and also have a place to reflect on their experience performing whatever activity they chose and have the ability to read their partner's reflection. So it essentially was a means to get ideas, but also to encourage communication in order to encourage this never ending set of exploration. Because I feel like a lot of couples reach a stagnation. They'll have phases where they feel they should explore more or after a while they realize maybe we should spice things up. And I think that could easily be fixed if there's just a means to continue the conversation. Technology can make that change and how it can enhance those connections and develop an interesting relationship with your own body, but also your partners as well. Yeah, absolutely. The ability for technology to create and maintain connection I think is one of the most fascinating pieces of the clinical side of this. How can we leverage these emerging technologies, these new ways of thinking to make people's lives better and their relationships better? Yeah. I am curious, speaking of relationships, about your own. Do you in your personal life, how public are you as a pro-dom? Does your family know you as a dominatrix or as a designer or as both? Both. I'm from Venezuela. My family was never involved in the kink scene at all. So this is all very foreign to them. But I think they definitely saw it coming that this was something that I was going to do. My family was always very sex positive. People talked about it in the house. I had a very healthy sex conversation growing up. I'm still so thankful for this. Most people can't say this, but my mom made a point to tell me, I think it's really important to know what you like before you figure it out with other people. And a lot of people don't have that experience, especially from a parent from a different generation. So my family was definitely very sex positive, but knew nothing of kink. When I first entered the scene, I had already worked at Afterglow at a woman's ethical porn company. And it was kind of just like a funny joke. And I don't mean that in like a they were making fun of me, but it was like a little entertaining for them. They were very supportive and they thought it was really cool. But it's definitely like, oh, Steph is off like designing her porn kind of thing. They just didn't really get it. But they were supportive and they were happy that I was making money and got a job that they could see I was really passionate about. And I would explain to them the mission behind the program. And they were like, yeah, this checks out. This seems very up your alley. And then my mom knew that I was part of Hit Me Up, a kink organization in New York. And that's where I was making all these friends. And she could see the change in my standards of the people that I was becoming involved with and my level of communication. And my values between the way that I connected with one another with each other. And then when I lost my job, I think I told her I was going to be doing this. And I think her biggest concern was really just like, are you going to be safe? And also the conversation around being a sex worker. I think there's just a lot of taboo around what that really means. And I think they're, I forget what it's called. They call it like the horror hierarchy or something like that. People from different generations just see different kinds of sex workers as being more or less appropriate or OK. So my family would probably would have more of a problem with this if I was a stripper or an escort. And these are all things that I think are totally fine. They're not my jam, but like power to all the women that want to. But I know that I have had an easier time coming out to my family about this because of their notion of what it means to be a BDSM provider. I think that is so fascinating that you have such supportive family around you and that you are able to live authentically personally and professionally. That is not a luxury many people in the kink community get to say. And I think that that is a really amazing story to be able to share. Yeah, it's really interesting because now I'm out. I thought that when I would come out on LinkedIn, I would have a lot more people DMing me about it. And I really don't. I mean, I don't want to jinx it because I definitely have had some people. But I think that a lot of people's biggest fear is their family finding out or their job finding out and then losing their community and their means of financial support. And those just weren't a huge thing for me. And I'm very open about it with all the people that I hang out with. So are there some security things that I could probably learn from you guys? Yes. Yeah, it's been interesting to have conversations because, of course, the best risk management is risk avoidance. We don't have these risky situations. But in many ways, you said something earlier there about generations. And many ways from a generational perspective, well, how do you do risk avoidance? Either don't do it. Well, that's not going to work. Or we do it online where there's a big wall between us and them. And it was fascinating talking to folks who are like, no, no, it's actually more risky to do online because you can't control the pictures, the videos, where all that goes. It's better if you're in person. It's better if you have an interview process. It's better if you have a community around you. I'm saying all the things that I hear that you're nodding your head and going, yeah, but I'm like, this is all new to me. This is surprised me the way that the landscape is actually quite different than I would have expected. I can only speak to my own experience, which is limiting. How do you kind of do your own risk assessment? What is your personal risk framework? Yeah, a lot of people reach out just because they want something right then and now and don't understand that you're not working at a dungeon. And just because you're on the site, that doesn't mean you're available. So I turn down people because of that. I also turn down people that won't fill out my application. And within my application, for my own safety, I need to have two referrals from other sex workers. It doesn't have to be a dominatrix. It can be any kind of sex worker that they've paid before and have had an interaction with. And I have turned down clients because I've reached out to their referrals and they're like, he was a perfectly nice guy, but he has done a no call, no show before and a Dom lost a ton of money because he didn't show up after she just spent money on travel and booking a room and he never did anything about it. And so I had to turn him down for that reason. I've had to turn down a lot of clients because they want full service and I don't do that. I've also turned down clients that are just not open to negotiation and just want, say they have no limit and don't use safe word. And that is unsafe. That's also just not appealing for me. I'm very interested in forming dynamics with clients and forming good relationships with them. And my best clients have become really good friends of mine that I really trust. And that is what I'm looking for. I treat it as if I'm dating, which is really amazing advice that I got before I started and was just thinking about it from a Dom who has been in this scene for a while. And she said, choosing clients should be just like you're dating. These are people that you're going to form some sort of relationship with and they're going to grow to love you. Honestly, they're going to grow to love you and you have to handle that with a lot of care and respect. So if I want someone to have all these big feelings for me, I need to be picky about the people that I'm going to allow that energy in my life. So these are all things that I consider when going over their application. And then I set up a consultation call. And the consultation call is $50 for 30 minutes. And there I get to really learn about them, learn about their intentions, their goals, and ask them questions on their application. And a lot of the people don't know what aftercare means. A lot of the people don't know what makes them actually feel most submissive, which is one of the questions on my application. So I get to really like poke and prod at these things and ask them more about their experience. One of my favorite terms that I use whenever I am training, presenting, writing, and it's not mine. I heard Stefano Sanche, who are some amazing kink educators based out of the Bay Area, say several years ago that the key part of kink, the most important element to be mindful of is equality of expectation. This idea that no matter what kind of scene is being negotiated, that everybody needs to be on the same page around what is happening and why and what that will look like and when it will end and how it will end. And I think in listening to you talk about negotiations and aftercare and navigating difficult client and customer consultations, that equality of expectation really is foundational in every aspect of your work. 100% agree. I've seen that happen in so many UX interviews that I sat in on. And another thing you mentioned was dating and it occurred to me recently, I was on the IT and the D podcast and I was talking about the conference that Stefani and I were putting together and talking about how it lays out and they're like, oh, did you know we did an entire series about how good tech work is like dating? No. But there is so much overlap, I think, in how you meet people, how you explain yourself, how you communicate, how you do boundaries between technology and dating and the work you're doing in the Pro Dom space. This was a really fascinating article and I just want to say thank you for writing it. Thank you. I have considered interviewing other sex workers and asking them more questions about what are the skills that have impacted their professional life. And this has definitely inspired me to really see where that can go and maybe destigmatize sex work as I'm doing it. But I just wanted to say thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed getting to know both of you and getting the chance to expand on this article that I wrote. It was a fabulous article. It was a great conversation. I'm so excited that you were able to join us. So thank you for that. Yes, thank you. And thank you so much for tuning in to Securing Sexuality, your source of the information you need to protect yourself and your relationships. Securing Sexuality is brought to you by the Bound Together Foundation, a 501c3 nonprofit. From the bedroom to the cloud, we're here to help you navigate safe sex in a digital age. Be sure to check out our website, Securing Sexuality, for links to more information about the topics we've discussed here today, as well as our 2023 live conference in Detroit. 
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