The Cross-Over Episode - Securing Sexuality Podcast Episode 47

8/13/2023

Tune in for our first ever cross-over episode and listen in as our intrepid hosts join Rachel Arnold and Will McCullen for an episode of The Coffee Table Talk cybersecurity podcast. Join us for a heavily caffeinated conversation between three cybersecurity experts (and Stefani) as they explain why technologists need to be paying attention to the way people form and foster their relationships online and off.

Grab your ticket to the Securing Sexuality Conference here.

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Securing Sexuality is the podcast and conference promoting sex positive, science based, and secure interpersonal relationships. We give people tips for safer sex in a digital age. We help sextech innovators and toy designers produce safer products. And we educate mental health and medical professionals on these topics so they can better advise their clients. Securing Sexuality provides sex therapists with continuing education (CEs) for AASECT, SSTAR, and SASH around cyber sexuality and social media, and more.

Wolf Calls on Hackers to Make a Difference

Links from this week’s episode:

Building Better Technology: Prioritizing User Safety

In today's digital age, technology has become integral to our lives, including how we navigate relationships and explore our sexuality. The convenience and accessibility of the internet have opened up countless opportunities for connecting with others, exploring our desires, and seeking information.

However, with these opportunities come risks, making cybersecurity an essential aspect of our digital lives. Cybersecurity refers to the measures taken to protect our digital information and ensure our privacy and safety online. It encompasses using strong passwords, being cautious of phishing attempts, keeping software updated, and being mindful of the information we share online.

While these practices are crucial in various aspects of our lives, they are particularly important when it comes to relationships and sexuality. In the realm of relationships, technology has revolutionized how we meet and connect with potential partners. Dating apps and websites have made finding like-minded individuals and exploring romantic possibilities easier.

However, it is essential to be aware of the potential risks associated with these platforms. One of the primary concerns is the protection of personal information. When creating profiles on dating platforms, we often provide details such as our names, ages, locations, and even photos. While this information is necessary to connect with others, it also puts us at risk of identity theft or stalking.

Therefore, it is crucial to be cautious about the information we share and ensure that the platforms we use have robust security measures. Additionally, maintaining open communication with potential partners is essential. Discussing cybersecurity concerns, such as sharing sensitive information or engaging in intimate conversations, can help establish trust and ensure both parties are on the same page regarding privacy and safety.

It is essential to be mindful of the potential risks and to take proactive steps to protect ourselves and our partners. When exploring our sexuality, the internet provides many resources and information.

However, this accessibility also comes with risks. Websites and online communities centered around sexual interests can be a breeding ground for cybercrime and harassment. Engaging in discussions or sharing personal experiences online can leave us vulnerable to cyberbullying, revenge porn, or blackmail. To protect ourselves, we must be mindful of the platforms we use and the information we share.

Utilizing strong passwords, being cautious of who we engage with, and being aware of our digital footprint can help mitigate these risks. Furthermore, it is essential to educate ourselves about the legal aspects of online sexual activities. Laws regarding consent, consent age, and explicit material distribution can vary significantly across jurisdictions.

Familiarizing ourselves with these laws can help us make informed decisions and avoid engaging in illegal activities unknowingly. In addition to personal safety, cybersecurity plays a significant role in maintaining healthy relationships in the digital age.

Trust and open communication are the foundations of any successful relationship, including transparency about our digital activities. Being honest with our partners about the platforms we use, our conversations, and the information we share can help build trust and ensure both parties feel secure.

Establishing boundaries regarding privacy and digital activities helps maintain a healthy level of trust and respect within the relationship. Awareness of the potential risks associated with online infidelity is also essential. The temptation to engage in emotional or physical affairs may be heightened by the ease of connecting with others online.

It is crucial to be mindful of our actions and their impact on our relationships. Moreover, cybersecurity extends beyond our actions and our platforms and services. Choosing reputable and secure platforms that prioritize user privacy and data protection is essential.

Reading reviews, understanding the platform's terms of service, and knowing their data handling practices can help ensure our information is safe. In conclusion, the digital age has transformed how we navigate relationships and explore our sexuality. While technology offers countless opportunities, it also presents risks that can impact our privacy, personal safety, and relationships.

Cybersecurity measures are crucial in protecting our digital information and ensuring our safety online. By being mindful of the information we share, engaging in open communication with our partners, and utilizing secure platforms, we can navigate relationships and sexuality in the digital age with confidence. Prioritizing cybersecurity is essential for our individual well-being and the health and longevity of our relationships.

Key Terms:

Safe sex in the digital age
Intimacy and information security
Technology and relationships
Online harassment and mental health
Online safety and education
Cybersecurity in personal relationships
Privacy and online dating platforms
Intersection of technology and sexuality
Media literacy and safe online practices
User safety in the digital age

Wolf Goerlich: Hello and welcome to Securing Sexuality. The podcast where we discuss the intersections of intimacy and information security. I'm Wolf Goerlich. Right now, As this episode goes live, Stephanie and I are at Hackers summer camp. And, uh, that's a story we'll be sharing with you guys in a future episode, for sure. But for this week, we're bringing you a discussion we had with Rachel Arnold and Will McCullen uh, what does safe sex look like in a digital age? Right. This is the the quintessential question we ask ourselves and the question Rachel invited us on to her show. The coffee table talks to discuss. So I hope you enjoy this wide ranging conversation where, uh, we we have a lot to say and tie many of the threads we've woven here at this show. As always, thanks for listening and join us again here for more conversations about the intersection of sexuality and technology. Have a great week.

Good morning, everybody. And welcome to the coffee table talks. Grab your cup. Circle up today. It's a Hogwarts. I'm still waiting on my Hogwarts letter.

Yeah, Yes, I love it. Will. You're lame.

Where's your cup?

Where's your cup, man?

I - You know me. I don't I don't drink coffee.

Um, I know. I know. Your kidneys are probably way happier than mine. It's fine. It's fine.

Why does it say something went wrong with my chat?

You guys, that's not supposed to happen. So we're gonna do that real quick, and then we're gonna do this if this is the first time joining or if you're not familiar with who I am. Hi. I'm Rachel Arnold, also known as the guy. Hi.

This is, uh, this This guy with me is always like we should do this. We should put the guest should always be at the top. I'm just saying I'm just saying, uh, with me, as always is will mccullin, the programme manager at the IT Centre of Excellence at P, a community college in Tucson, Arizona. That is a mouthful.

No, if you guys aren't connected with will go check him out on his LinkedIn. I made him get a new profile picture. It is hot. His wife helped him pick it out. It's amazing. It's fantastic. I love it. And today our special guests are Doctor Stephanie Gorlick and her beautiful spouse, Wolfgang Gorlick. Hi.

So, is it Wolf or Wolfgang?

Which one do we like?

We we can go with Wolf. Wolf is fine. Speaking of LinkedIn, uh, profile photos, though.

Fun fact, we got his and hers matching photos on our LinkedIn. If anyone wants to look, you should you should go.

Look, go check it out. All right.

Uh, you can definitely shout out to them, reach out and connect. I'm sure they'll be happy. Just mention that you caught up and and met them for the first time during the stream. And they'll be like, Great. You're not spam. We'll connect. Great. Because nobody puts the coffee table talk in a spam message. We're just not that popular. Yeah. Good morning, everybody. We see you. I do see you.

I don't know why the chat isn't running over here. To the side.

Uh, good morning, John Davis joining us from vacation of Fearless Leader.

Hi, Ben. We see you, Shane. Hi.

Uh, if anybody go connect with Shane as well, he's part of a wonderful organisation called the Innocent Lives Foundation. You should definitely go do that, too. And I am so excited that Stephanie and Wolfe are here today. They were one of the very first. What I consider.

I don't know if anybody else does this What?

I consider like a power couple in cybersecurity.

OK, they're amazing Dynamic. So diverse too.

OK, so wolf. And he'll he'll talk about himself in a second too.

Uh, with duo security Also, him and Stephanie have started a podcast. That is amazing. It's called securing sexuality. And hold on. I've got I look at the new thing.

I figured out how to do what?

What?

Get your It's not gonna lead you anyplace sketch box, OK, It did. I didn't do that. It just it it knew to glow right then. That was amazing.

Yeah, very cool. It's asking me for a password.

Is that right?

Uh, no. Unless you need to log into your the the only thing that should be asking you for anything, because that's gonna lead you to the Spotify.

Um, so it might be asking you to log in, but if it looks don't do that. I just I just play it.

Do you have your M FA set up to your Spotify?

Of course.

Yes, of course. Everywhere, Everywhere, everywhere, everywhere everywhere.

Uh, and doctor Stephanie Gore Like I. I need you to break it very gently to everyone. What it is that you do.

Oh, OK. This is adult time, guys.

Nobody be 12 or younger, right?

If you're right, if you have small ones around, maybe put some headphones on. Unless you want to get into some conversations that you may not feel comfortable talking to your kids about. I don't know. You're building this up way too much. I thought I'm not. So we so I. I have everybody, mostly not. Let me. There we go.

No, I'm not like looking over my, uh if you guys didn't grab it, I can send you the link later. Feel free to DM me.

Uh, anyhow, so I have little ones. They are 56 and eight, and we talk very openly, honestly and earnestly about sexuality with them. When they have questions, we don't dance around it. We hit it straight on at an age appropriate level. What we hope is age appropriate.

And then we tell them to send us the bill for the therapy later if it comes up and we did it wrong, but we talk very openly about it. But I know not everybody feels that way. And I just want to be cognizant of that, I guess, is the thing. I just wanna, you know, a little bit. So let me no further ado.

Would you please introduce yourself to everyone else?

And I'm gonna hold up your book like a crazy person?

Um, sure. I am Stephanie Gorlick. I am a critical social worker by training.

Um, I'm also a certified sex therapist and a clinical sexologist.

Um, I specialise in working with gender, sexuality and relationship differences, and I write and speak and teach and present a lot on, um, mental health for the B DS, M and communities. Yeah.

How do you get into that?

How do you get there?

Did you just as a little girl, you're like, You know what I really want to be When I grow up this third grade teacher that asks me this question.

I mean, I I was definitely an unusual little girl, but no, What led to it actually was I. I worked with domestic violence and sexual assault survivors, And when Wolf and I, um, started dating, he really wanted me to have a job that didn't come with a panic button, and I had been doing that work for about 10 15 years at that point, was feeling a little toasty, a little burnt out.

So I went back and I did my postgraduate training in sex therapy, thinking that instead of working with people who were victims of sexual violence, I would be working with people who were wanting to have a happier, healthier, more positive relationship.

But then, um, very, very early, literally like the 1st 23 days in my training, we were learning about different populations and different clients, that we might work with different issues that they might present with different relationship styles we might encounter. And everybody in my group was like, Oh, that's so beautiful Oh, that's so wonderful.

Oh, that's so brave until we got to be a seven K. And then they got very like, whispery and very giggly and very judgy.

And again, I'm a social worker by training, and I realised that my work with um, you know, advocacy for people who are having their relationships and their sexuality weaponized against them was not over, because even in this context, of, you know, fully licenced medical and medical health professionals that had self selected into the specialty and had chosen a very progressive school. There was still a lot of stigma.

There was still a lot of bias, and so I feel like I'm still doing the same work. But instead of working with people who have been physically assaulted, I'm working with people to make sure that their mental health providers aren't causing harm to make sure that they're able to access therapy and access health care in a way that is emotionally safe and affirming for them.

So to me, it feels like a very linear logical progression.

Um, but, yeah, I usually do get some confused looks when I say that I'm I'm a kink affirming sex therapist. I'll bet I'll bet. Whenever you said it to me, though, I was totally like, yeah, that skins 100%. I was like, Yeah, I like it. You're needed. I see it.

I see why, Uh, Wolf, thank you so much for sharing the link to Stephanie's book. You can't click it in the thing, but you guys can definitely go to amazon dot com. Look up Sprinkles top everything partners communicate, I believe, and you should be able to find it.

Um, Stephanie has written a couple of books. I have.

I believe that was the first one, Was it not the leather couch?

Uh, that was my first one from providers.

Yeah, um, and it it really If anybody goes to Amazon or bookshop and just puts my name in being aware that my parents got creative with the spelling of Stephanie, they can find everything I've done.

Yeah, I still I. I talk to you pretty regularly. I feel more regularly than I talk to any of my other friends. Just so you know, the frequency of how often, uh, I'm bad at it, You guys, it's a DH D thing.

Uh, and I screw it up all the time. I. I do like the PH for stuff instead of the F. I'm I'm used to it. Nobody ever gets it right. They they My parents chose the spelling because my grandmother was a migrant farm worker who dropped out of school in third grade and they couldn't have random P, E and S that you didn't pronounce.

And what the hell is an H doing in there, so they made it as simple as possible.

And still, throughout the course of my life, every time she wrote me a letter, it was spelled differently. So I'm very comfortable with.

However, anybody spells my name. Just go for it. I also sort of mom or hey, you like I will do it. I will do. I hate you. So I'm surprised they didn't just get shortened as step. This is true. This is true. I am also surprised. So I've lost the chat, which I feel really bad about. I'm really sad. Like I can see it on the side here.

So, like, if you guys put up something look like I can do that But I can't. For some reason, I can't. So we see you all saying hello. Just so you know, I do.

But like, for some reason, my chat overlay decided just to be all fun. All fun this morning. So little little bit of panicking on the inside right now for Rachel. Just so you know.

Um, so did we talk?

We did. We get a chance to talk about, um No. There's a conference coming up in October in Detroit.

Oh, did we get a chance to talk about that?

No, we didn't. We need to talk about We didn't I'd love to, because I'm going to speak at it.

Yes, that's important. So Rachel will be there.

I mean, this is This is this is the time.

Should we should we even tell people what it's about?

Or I mean, just say, come see Rachel in Detroit.

No, that's probably enough.

We should we rent?

I mean, we can.

Well, here's the Here's the thing. Right.

So when people hear what Stephanie's do doing, they look at me and they go, What does that have to do with technology?

Right. That's cool.

Like, But how do you two communicate as, like, two different worlds?

Two different planets, two different fandoms. That last one is true. I can't get it into star truck.

You know, it can help at a conference. Convince her that school, I would appreciate it.

No, but here's the thing. I think for a long time we've been building technology and we haven't thought about things like consent.

Uh, consent has been boiled down to Do you accept a cookie, right?

We haven't really thought about um or or enforced good controls around how to have communication. Communication controls have been boiled down to do I block somebody.

Well, that's a start, I guess.

I mean, I'm glad I have that, but there's a lot of different ways that we build technology that don't take into account.

Uh, how relationships get started, how relationships get formed, how they get maintained.

Um, how they get negotiated.

Um, if you are of the, uh, general population who has multiple relationships at the same time consensually how all that gets sorted out and in as a result, um, technology lets people down. It lets people down all the time.

And that's not even beginning to scratch of what happens when there's, uh, you know, uh, contested areas of health care and what have you So all this is to say, Um, what we realised in the past couple of years is there's this big need to help technologists better understand, uh, relationships and how to build technology that, uh, supports, uh, what are We are most vulnerable, right?

And hackers talk about being the Internet immune system.

Why aren't we doing something about this?

Um, that's a soapbox for another day or maybe another timeless. And also at the same time helping her world understand technology.

What are our options?

What are what are we, uh, sharing that?

We shouldn't, Um how do we help our our clients, uh, navigate this world?

Uh, because it's really confusing. It's confusing for me. And I've been doing this since the dawn of time.

So, you know, bridging these two worlds has become really important work that Stephanie and I have been doing. And as a result, we are doing a two day conference, uh, in Detroit, bringing together some of the best minds from, um, the hacker world from the the, uh, from laws from philosophies from the sex therapy world.

Two days getting together, having some great sessions, having some great fun, doing all the great stuff that hackers do when they get together. So we're we're gonna sort of pull pull Stepan's world over to the dark side a little bit, uh, and also just like building community building connections. That's I think that's quite a challenge. That is pretty incredible. And correct me if I'm wrong, Stephanie.

But, um, from what you talked about with your background in a big part of that is not just sexuality, but communication relationships being able to work with people. And when you combine that with the tech ape aspect, just like the difference of going from the written word and how little that communicates to here we are in a virtual session.

Yeah, it's getting better.

But that still doesn't communicate to the point to where, when you're in front of people and talking with people directly, all that more communication that comes through And then the things that have developed through elements like covid things like that Where, uh especially on the tech side, on the geek side, where they like to shun that close communication and gravitate gravitate to some of the more obscure communications that take place in technology, right?

And am I anywhere near right target with that?

Sure.

Um, I think one of the big conversations that has only started to happen is thinking about, you know, in in the world of B, SI and kink that we have this concept of rack risk away consensual kink and usually my clients or my colleagues in mental health and sexuality think about that in terms of specific physical behaviours or physical activities.

But they don't necessarily think about it in terms of the technological piece, which has become infinitely more important and in some ways a lot more dangerous. So expanding those conversations around communication and consent to include, you know, if somebody sends their partner sexy photos.

What are the relationship agreements around that?

How are they sending that?

How is it being stored?

Is it being stored?

What are the agreements around sharing?

What are the agreements around?

Deleting?

Um, there are lots of apps that have been developed for people in all kinds of relationships.

I mean, you have very, like picket fit suburban couples using cosy to keep track of, like their grocery shopping and their kids' sports, um, outings. And then you have kinky couples that are using apps like obedience to track their sort of more power exchange things.

But thinking again about, well, who has access to that?

How secure is it?

What do we want to understand about the technologies that we're bringing into our relationship is not a conversation that's historically happened, and I do think you're right.

I think Covid was a turning point for a lot of people because for my clients, specifically people that are parts of marginalised communities, whether they are trans people or kinky people or non monogamous people finding your community and finding people that understand and you and your life and your relationships can be difficult under the best of circumstances, especially if you live somewhere, that's, um, more rural or, um not quite as population dense.

So you have everybody regardless of where they live. That was really struggling with isolation during Covid. Then you have people across the country that are struggling with isolation regardless, and they're looking online to form communities, and they're looking online for support and for validation and for connection and for relationship.

Long distance relationships in minority populations are really, really common, because sometimes you have to reach really far to find your people and understanding these safety challenges intrinsic in that and knowing how to negotiate those and to have conversations with those around your partner is something that people are only just now starting to think about, and because of sort of the shifting ethical and legal and social cultural moment we're in in America, those conversations have been really, really important because more and more minority groups are being targeted and being able to talk to each other about how do we keep ourselves our friends?

Our relationship safe is a whole new world that people are just beginning to explore.

Yeah, and not just around.

You know, the sharing of of spicy photos or spicy content amongst, um people that you already trust and know face to face, right. But there's also just doing some research for the talk, uh, stuffing that that you asked me to to give.

There are all these fun groups, by the way, that are gathered together around some of the dating apps that are like, Are you dating the same guy I'm dating like stuff like that?

And it's where they're going through and and it's it's great to see some of it can be a little bit toxic sometimes. But it's it's great to see that there's this community that's aware that some of these folks can be, um, malicious, right or have, um, negative, seriously negative motives towards them, or be trying to extort them or or whatever it is.

And, um, I think it's it's something that I looking back at some of the group histories when they started and and stuff like that. It looks like it sprung out a lot of covid, by the way, like a bunch and they're all and it's area driven.

Um, Kim McCarthy, the CO for Secure Nation.

Actually, her and I grabbed a bite yesterday at lunch, just kind of, you know, Chitty chatting about the upcoming talk and and some research things. And I was sharing some some fun stuff with her, and she was like, Those aren't just the She's like those are everywhere. They're like these little groups based on city and state and everything else.

And one of the questions that came to my mind is like, Wow, um, could you select AAA VPN to set up these accounts to spoof your geolocation and then be able to do these things right?

Right.

Well, like, yeah, so I just I'll just say it because a lot of them work on those apps are tracking your area, right, Because it's not. It's not gonna be helpful for you as a consumer of this application to hook up with people. If you live in New York that are in California, right like you're not gonna see each other.

You might Chitty chat back and forth, but that's not gonna be very productive. So they're based on where you log in, you know, and they search in your area and you have to turn on your location for this to happen. And whenever you have, um, you know, bad guy mindset with good guy intentions. You're like, this seems bad. Like you can get around this.

We can We can definitely, um, do some stuff here.

So anyway, that's I think it is really valuable that these conversations are happening. And I think that the work that you guys are doing is amazing.

Um, especially just a lot of people don't even realise that these communities exist.

And if you know, you know, you know what I mean?

Like if you're part of the community you already knew. But for those that don't you know, the these aren't things that are just specific to that community of of humans.

These are things that are can affect all of us, right?

It just so happens that your background and and expertise is more specific to this community. So that's why I thought this was a really important conversation to have.

And, uh, why I'm so glad that you guys are here to have coffee today.

So anyway, I was wondering, how does Rachel come up with this shit?

Like, how do we end up hanging out with Rachel?

Uh, which which we definitely have to do more often.

You know, there's there's also an interesting thing in here, too, right?

Like if you if you are a fan of design, uh, you probably know, like, design thinking. And you probably have heard of this idea of, like, extreme users and extreme users of any sort of design of product are the the folks that, uh, uh, use it in unique ways or use it to the edges.

And by identifying and satisfying those needs, we can often times figure out really great things that help everybody.

Um, so a lot of our our products that we use every single day come out of this, You know, someone who really pushed something to the edge went Ah, Maybe I need to do this. Maybe I need to, you know, make an app a little bit better. Or maybe I need to make a potato Peeler bit the hand differently and I.

I think there's a real strong message for anyone who's building technology. Certainly in in sex tech, if you're building sex tech, this directly applies. But I think regardless, anyone who's building technology today by looking at these challenges and by satisfying these challenges, can build a significantly better product.

Um, and you're right.

I mean, we we all we all need a bit more privacy and a little bit more consent and a little bit more control of our tech stags, I think. And there's there's nothing.

I mean, the There's a balance right for the for the, um, the creators and supporters of the apps that are out there, right?

They they want to go.

We hope we hope we hope the reason why they develop these apps is to create opportunities for people to network and connect and really, you know, build some some I'm gonna make a punt bonding relationships, right?

Like really build that. And sometimes whenever you're going real fast, you forget to do the what ifs.

What if this and what if that and is this really safe?

Is it so much of a risk that we should address it, Or is it something that we should just put in the Eula and they're gonna check the box and never scroll to the bottom?

You know, like it'll be fine.

This is fine, right?

Because how many times it's still the money motive in developing it is and and they you know. And that's so I'm a silver lining kind of gal. I like to see the best in people and hope for the best in people. But I also understand that there are dark, rainy clouds.

And the other reason is, you know, because you can prey on humankind's loneliness and sell them a product that they will utilise to cure that hole in their soul, right, especially whenever it comes to the bad feelings right?

We you don't You know, you feel bad. This will make you feel better.

Instant right?

Here's a pill.

Um, so it's, uh, it's just I think it's great for the awareness portion, too, because sometimes you can't change the way that these apps behave or work, But you can help spread the word about how they work. Just be just so.

Users are aware of what's happening so they understand the danger, right?

You can't the first thing I teach my kids whenever we're we're doing, you know, this is how we cross the street or the parking lot is to watch out for cars, right, Because they have to be aware if we just go. These are the rules of the parking lot.

You hold hands, we stay together, right?

But I never tell them about the danger of a car that could possibly not see them right. I'm I'm not fully educating them about their surroundings and about the dangers that could be present in those surroundings. So it it's so important to be able to talk about it with the communities that utilise these tools to connect with one another, because that's a beautiful thing.

But you don't want to get hit by a car like I think that's really important, is that sometimes it's not a matter of malicious intent. It's just a matter of scale.

Um, one of the things that really kind of hammered home, how important this is for me.

Um, back in the before times when Twitter was still fun, um, somebody reached out to me and they said, you know I'm familiar with your I'm familiar with your work. I'm familiar with your books. I I'm pretty sure this is you. I've been working on building a new dating app for kinky people.

Would you share it with your clients?

And I think the vast majority of clinicians would be like, Yay! New resource can't wait to share because our clients want those and need those. But I married into the hacker community and I've learned how to ask good questions. And so I'm like, Well, maybe let me let me look at it and I'll get back to you.

And I sent the link to a friend of ours who's a pen tester, and I said, I know you're not working for them. I know you can't do anything. I don't want you to do anything that you can't do, but only looking at what is publicly available, looking at what anybody could find without extraordinary skill.

Can you tell me if this is something I can safely share with my clients?

And in less than a half an hour, he's like, Well, here are links to their users. Facebook pages here are links to their users. Pinterest pages.

No, I would not recommend this and I reached back out to them and I said, I can't share this with my clients And here's why. And I never got a response from them And it's not, I suspect that they are intentionally trying to, you know, call black male material from kinky people.

It's more likely that it's a one person operation out of their spare room, just trying to do something for their community. But they don't have the resources or the infrastructure to do it safely. And so there's just kind of this. Let's cross our fingers and hope that the only people that find it and use it are the people that we sort of default into trusting.

And unfortunately, that's not how the world is working right now. There's so many people out there that are intentionally looking for people to target, and online harassment has become so vitriolic and so rapid that we can't lean on that. Maybe if people aren't kinky, they won't know the site is out there and we'll be fine.

We really have to be thinking about security even when the scale of what we're building is relatively small.

Oh, definitely.

I mean, this is one of those unique spaces, right?

When you put on the hacker hat of we have our adversaries have worked so well at dividing everybody and intensifying irritation on both sides that now you have folks that are out there like you say hunting. And these kinds of elements are so ripe for the picking for doxing for being able to take that information and weaponize it and for bad intent, right, I wolf.

You probably come across that kind of stuff, right?

All the time and in in areas where you wouldn't necessarily think about it.

Like we're We're used to like celebrities being doxed and swatted, right?

I mean, that was where we heard about it.

Like, Oh, they went after this famous guy, that famous person.

Um, but now we're starting to hear about it in certainly in the therapist world.

Uh, I've been invited to a number of panels to help navigate that. We did a podcast episode on that recently.

Uh, but also librarians, librarian, little sweet librarians. My grandmother was a librarian and she retired three times, and I think she would have retired four times. I worked until she was done, had worked from home, been allowed, like if if she could have zoomed in and done her job, she would have done. She loved it.

So I, I think about librarians. I don't think about like them getting doxed and attacked. But with all the vitro that's going on, that happens all the time.

These days, um, you know, people get called a groomer because of a certain book in the library or because a certain thing was said, uh, in, uh, in session and it's just it's, uh it's it's a It's a dangerous world out there, so yeah, the the doxing side, the swatting side.

Um uh, very real threats right now, thankfully, random. Thankfully, um, you know, not intense, like we can't say.

Oh, it happened to you tomorrow, uh, thankfully, but still real and still something that we need to do something about. And people can't necessarily predict what's going to lead to on online online harassment.

I, um, was recently called a groomer on Reddit because I had the audacity to tell a 17 year old that the most authentically Jewish thing she could do is make the choices that feel best for her. I didn't say what she should do.

I just said, because she was asking questions about Is it OK to make out with boys?

Can I call myself Jewish?

Is it OK to be religious and make out with boys?

I'm a teenager. I like making out with boys, and my Christian friends are telling me I can't. But I am not a good Jew if I'm doing these things. And all I said was, the most Jewish thing you can do is make good choices that feel authentic for yourself. And I absolutely got dog piled and called a groomer. So that is sound. I think that was a sound response. Absolutely.

I'm not questioning my response at all. I stand by what I said, but it's good People cannot predict what is going to lead to really horrific harassment. And with the Supreme Court ruling this month that online harassment is protected speech, there's nothing you can do to protect yourself once that starts. And so the fallout is people choose to be quiet. People choose to stay silent.

People that might have provided gender affirming care, stop doing it or stop talking about it or stop advertising it because they're afraid of being harassed. And then people that need it can't find it. And it becomes this really, really effective tool to silence and isolate people.

Because if you never know what's going to result in you being attacked, and if the legal system says attacking you is fine, as long as it's only online, the safest thing people think they can do is just not say something at all. And that has a profound impact on culture, on minorities, on marginalised populations. And it's really, really insidious.

And it starts with something as simple as make whatever choices feels most authentic and right for you. I think that is wonderful. It I don't understand how I don't know Shane, Shane or uni right, because they both they both work with, um, innocent live foundation. So I feel like we have some subject matter. Experts on grooming chime in if you can if you can, if you can.

I don't know, uh, or just message me to the side and because now I'm curious, how could that possibly be perceived as grooming?

I need help, like Shane, I need help. Help Shane, help me understand. And if anybody else has questions about that, too, Um, I'll let you know how it goes, but it's I'm flabbergasted stuff, that is, it's a cultural shift.

There is a cultural shift happening where anybody that is perceived as condoning anything other than absolute monogamy until I'm sorry, absolute abstinence until a monogamous heterosexual marriage is grooming Children and encouraging them to lead deviant lives.

And so, if you anything outside of this very narrow band of what is appropriate right now, you can have your reputation destroyed. You can have your career destroyed. You can have your licence called into question so you can't practise anymore. It is very aggressive, very quick and very hostile. And it's scaring a lot of people into not doing good work for people who need it most.

Well, I mean, I can understand why, right?

You don't wanna be publicly dragged over the coals, especially whenever you know your livelihood might be at risk for it. So stop doing that, General Pop, stop it Be, Be smart and knowledgeable. Stop being scared. This is where again.

I think hackers can help, right?

Because we've talked about how many talks seriously.

Seriously, how many talks have we all sat in on on every single conference ever over the past 5, 10 years, where someone's like is a thing. And here's how to hide your information. And some days someone may get you. And here's how to spy.

And here's how to counter spy and most of us like Yeah, Yeah, OK, uh, it, you know, maybe you're being a little bit paranoid, but All right, I'm I'm really glad that you gave me, you know, 16 bullets of how to remove my information from the Internet. Awesome.

Um, then suddenly this becomes very real.

Suddenly, this becomes very dangerous. Something that, at least in my family in my life, this is, uh, you know, something that targets someone who I care A quite, uh, quite high degree about I love, right.

Uh, so, I, I think this is one of many areas where hackers have some really good knowledge and really good skills.

Um, and, uh, you know, way too many power points where we can help. We can be like, Hey, here. Here is how you can do this. You can. Here's how you can do that, right. Most folks have anonymity so they can shoot their mouth off. True words have never been said.

Well, the other thing, too. That's the really unfortunate thing that's happening in culture today.

Everything from the media to, uh, online forums and things like that is the power of the, um, sound bite right where, like you, said Stephanie, that if you just apply a label, bam, the fact that that can have almost instantly to being able to ruin careers and things of that sort, um, to where it gets to a point to where the content doesn't even need to be as important.

You can use a sound bite or a label just to try to destroy somebody that's ugly. That is really, really ugly.

Instead of having the critical thinking of OK, yeah, but is that really true?

Right?

And when we lose a common understanding of what words mean, and it seems like for so many of us right now, especially in America, but I'm seeing it happen around the world in the UK. This is true as well, when we stop losing a common definition and we're genuinely speaking different languages, even if we're using the same words, it makes that understanding so much more difficult. So can be incredibly in depth.

Yeah, I think I think Rob actually commented pretty well on this. Here. Let's see.

Whoop, whoop, whoop!

Sorry, I double clicked The thing. Sound bites are awesome for fodder. Everything you say can be taken out of context or with only part of what you say. A funny example of that. I do a lot of media now. A lot of media now, but my very first interview ever, I was, I wanna say, 22 years old.

My son's father was getting ready to be deployed overseas, and the base had asked some of the spouses to talk to, um, the local news. And I have no idea what I said that resulted in this. But The Detroit News and the Detroit Free Press reported that Stephanie has no friends and has never had any actual responsibility in her entire life.

Well, you have three, at least right here.

Oh, wait. And about how people can just say casual things that get taken in a completely bizarre direction. You have no friends. That's horrible. What a negative thing to say. Do you should we do a daily affirmations today.

No, I don't, I I've I've I've bounced back from this, although funny thing, they won't actually issue a correction just saying, By the way, Stephanie does have friends that's not considered journalistically necessary. It's not considered necessary.

So what happened?

Two elements of accountability.

Right?

Libel or slander, right?

Things of that sort. And when it's anonymous, it's really hard to prove to where you know, let's say, uh, 20 years back, that kind of stuff could have have an effect.

But now, OK, sure, they might print a retraction, and it'll be on page 56 in the little box at the bottom unit. It's frustrating, very. I definitely agree. It can be very frustrating. I. I don't like build on one thing that Wolf said, because he was talking about and anonymity, and it's important that especially people in the info SEC world know that that's not an option for mental health providers.

It's simply not allowed. In order for me to bill insurance companies, I have to have a national provider number, and in order to have a national provider number, I have to list both my personal address and wherever I'm practising and up until I think three months ago, I wasn't able to say I'm telehealth only. Please don't publish my home address. Now you can check a box.

It's like if your clients never, ever come to where you are practising. Click this and will only publish city and state. But if you have, uh, an office, a bricks and mortar office that you're seeing people out of that has to be publicly available, you cannot request that they hide it. I actually did request that they hide mine and I was told, Well, it's foible anyway, so we're not gonna bother.

And if you don't, you cannot bill insurance and you cannot have a national provider number. So it is impossible for mental health providers to have any degree of physical safety because we are legally mandated to provide our physical location of where we're practising.

Which means if somebody doesn't like our practise or doesn't like the population we work with, there is a government list of targets, and we cannot legally opt out of that. That is terrifying. What a brave person you are. I'm so glad that Wolf is there with you a lot. You're never. And I take her with me when I travel.

Yeah, I like that too. By the way, my son is very into personal safety and home defence, so I feel relatively safe. But it's an important thing for infotech people to be aware of because a lot of the strategies that clinicians are given when they reach out for help just aren't practical.

Wolf was talking to one person who had reached out for guidance and when he was trying to find strategies to help them, Uh, one hacker suggestion was AAA dead drop.

And I'm like, I don't think people can like, hi, is not gonna be OK with us putting their medical records at a USB and leaving it in the park like a lot of strategies that hackers think of just simply aren't practical for the people that are doing frontline mental health work or advocacy or legal work for marginalised communities. But they could be if they got to understand your industry better. Yes.

Yeah, and I think that the hacker mindset is really the the key here, right?

Problem solving the creativity, the community, right, the thinking about things that a little bit sideways a little bit.

Uh, how do we How do we, uh, you know, break a rule or buck a system, right?

That sort of, uh, approach is is really crucial. And I think it's only gonna get more crucial as more of our lives are online.

And, as you know, the the systems, Uh, and I, I mean, political systems become become a little bit more onerous to navigate. Wow. Wow.

And if I mean so Lee community may be smaller, right?

We're talking about at scale going back to what you were talking about with scale.

But my my a DH D big picture thinking, right?

Because that's how I think I think way up here. I look at all the little parts all at the same time, and I think way up here so and and again doing research for the for the talk for the conference in October in Detroit plugging it again.

Uh, there are over 8000 competitive online dating sites and platforms worldwide. 8000. This is a market that people use, and if you want to know how many use it, it's 366 million people worldwide and 26.6 million just in the US alone. This is not Stephanie may be focusing on a small piece of that, but at large, we're all using it.

Yeah, we're all using it, OK, Every single one of us and the amount of data that those things gather on you.

The amount of information that they have about you and a lot of it is to help the APP perform the way that you expect it to, right?

A lot of it is, but it can be OK. It can. It can get into the wrong hands it somebody else could create account, uh, to, you know, prop up some anonymity, anonymity for themselves, and people can be extorted.

You just knowing the signs to look for knowing when it feels wrong, right?

If it feels wrong, it probably is wrong. Don't like, you know, don't Don't Don't put a bunch of pictures on your online dating apps that can help people that know how to utilise, uh, open source. Intelligence O. Right.

Figure out exactly where you live, right?

Don't don't have the picture. The McDonald's on this corner and the, uh, office depot on this corner because we're gonna figure it out real quick. All the McDonald's and office depots that are within the location and I can tell you where you took your picture like that's scary.

Well, even beyond that, we're in a situation where, um I won't say exactly how, but, uh, right there is a There was a storage area that folks who were just sending a hacker had gotten into some major online dating sites. And as folks filled out the forms, it would send that text data. It would copy it to the storage area that we came across.

Right?

So if you're going to do any of that stuff, um, just like any other side, you need to be ready to think about whatever information you put into something like that of where that might go and the dangers that are involved.

And I mean, you're talking about trying to protect yourselves, right?

Uh, if, uh, let's see what's, um, Michael Bell?

Have you ever heard his stuff with Intel techniques?

He has a whole book on, um, how to scrub. Try to do your best to scrub yourself from having that privacy information out there, and he has a whole cheat sheet list of tools that would take you probably a good week to go through just trying to hit all those major sites to take your information off your standard person. There is no way they can touch or do that.

That is way too much work. Also a learning curve that's massive. So how do we build into this At the beginning, I mean, you touched on this wolf of You've got to build the security unit, the beginning. If you're going to protect people, it's hard and stepping up to it. It is real hard.

I'll say, Um, the easy answer is delete me and check out that website. It'll get you, like, 70% of the way there, um, for a cost.

So I, I want to answer your question.

I also wanna answer what what Williams said about Should we follow our feelings or govern our feelings?

Because I feel like the the answer to both Your question and William's question are pretty tightly related Here. Here's the thing, um, and we've we've the research behind us that I'm I'm relying on is the research into how to really train people not to fall for fishing scams and effectively, it's don't tell them like, Oh, look for a typo or don't tell them, like, you know, uh, all those sort of things.

The way to teach someone to not fall for fishing scams, it turns out, is to show them how they might feel in a fishing scam.

Like, Do you feel pressured?

Do you feel threatened?

Do you feel like you need to react right away?

If they pay attention to that intuition, their success rate on fishing goes way, way, way, way up.

Um, if we just say, look for a typo So in part, yes, following your feelings, what it turns into is we need to help people build an intuition where they can know, um, what to look for broadly trust their feelings, um, and and act on their feelings when we ignore our intuitions is usually when we get into trouble. And part of that, too, is share stories.

And when this happens, uh, how many of us get scammed someone else invents a romance scam?

One of the top things that happens with a romance scam is people are so embarrassed they don't tell anyone, and then the next person gets scammed and they're like, Oh, it must just be me, right?

And so we're we're we are, uh, creating a situation where no one talks about these things and therefore culturally, we can't build up our intuitions to the point where we can truly trust ourselves. So building intuition, trusting our feelings, sharing information.

But one more step on that is making sure that the technology that we're working on that we're building and this goes out to all the technologies out there make sure we're taking into account that people, our our users can be our adversaries when we threat models. Usually the criminal wants to break in and he wants to steal stuff.

Blah, blah. Ba ba ba ba ba It's usually not, uh, my partner is, uh, spying on me.

Um, it's usually not.

Uh, I just wanted to be on a dating website, and I didn't realise they weren't scrubbing off F data.

Uh, it's usually not, you know, all the myriad of different ways that people are getting scammed. If we as technologists think about the personal, think about the relational, think about the times when we're really, truly most vulnerable. We can go a long way by building better technology where we don't even need to think about it.

And that's my set of, uh, what you're getting at, uh, in terms of getting ahead of some of these problems.

Yeah, I think Ben asks a really good question.

And I, I touched on it a little bit with the users. Please stop loading pictures where you know, those who are savvy with O can figure out exactly where you are. Where you frequent those kind of things.

Um, Ben asks, is if there's something a user or dating site itself can use to tag things like a photo, uh, that give away too much information. So I'm gonna let, uh, wolf and will kind of take this one on.

And, uh, or Stephanie, if you'd like to chime in because other than other than the O end of things and knowing that I don't ever tag my location in my photos like anywhere, um, then that's That's what I've got. I don't have anything else to add for that. And if anybody, of course, in the in the any of the viewers, if you guys have advice, throw it in there too.

We'll we'll pop it up.

So, I, I really like, um, having these conversations because people come up to us from a variety of different industries and we're having some really interesting conversations with, uh, people in the sex tech space who are doing some interesting innovations or own payments and marketing and all that sort of stuff.

Uh, we were given a demo of an APP, which is basically a game. It's like a matching game, and it gives you different pictures and you can say, Yeah, that's good or no.

And if no?

Then what?

What is, uh, what is wrong with this?

Oh, it shows too much information in the background. We see this, Um, you know, we we see, uh, other people and you can actually, like, go through and and, uh, flip back and forth and earn points. It's all it's gamet right to train people.

Now, that was a prototype. I don't know that they received funding to make that a real thing. So I'm I'm watching for apps like that.

Uh, if anyone sees one, we would love to hear it.

Uh, but so far I've only seen people in, like early stages.

Uh, I haven't seen anything like available for the general public.

How How great would that be, though, to have I would love for my kids to come home from their, uh, junior high or high school and tell me that they utilise something like that that they You know what I mean?

Just for secure.

I mean, I teach them anyway, but to have it reinforced outside of our home, that would be phenomenal. Phenomenal. Especially kids with phones in their hands that are now cameras and recording devices and all these other things, right. Like that's that would be phenomenal. Let me know. Speaking of recording devices, one thing that I think is really important is having conversations around personal privacy and autonomy.

Starting from the little bitty age, we were invited to a first birthday party and I was at target looking for a present for a literal toddler. And they were literally selling like babies first streaming like it was like a little fake webcam and a little fake so the baby couldn't pretend to stream. And that's become such a normal part of how people communicate and express themselves that OK, fine.

If you like your mom's making a living streaming on twitch. Great. You're gonna wanna, like, model what your parents are doing, but I suspect most people are not. And I suspect most people are buying these things, thinking they're cute, but not really thinking about what it's teaching Children from a year old about how they move through the world, what they share with the world, what their expectation of privacy should be.

It was one of the most like, creepy, dystopian things I've ever seen. And it was adorable to look at.

Of course, of course I was because marketing, marketing Oh, yeah, that that, like, takes a WiFi Barbie to a whole other level.

Right?

Where?

Where?

You know, you hand your your kid a doll and listen in. Something's wrong with that at the beginning, Right.

Um, but, um, to bring up some of those points like, uh, I think it was, um I forget where it was. Belling cat. Maybe where they go through whole list of elements.

Um, now I think this was, uh, Ukraine's, um, kind of blowing apart some Russian propaganda, but they go through the whole OS intelligence of being able to look at the background, um, being able to see what's happening.

You know, on that day, Um, comparing everything from cloud formations to whatever store or something you see in the background, people don't realise how much they're actually giving away from just little bitty clues in the background.

And, uh, like you said, if they don't scrub that information that their phone provides of Hey, I'm right here. Now they're in that that very dangerous situation of being significantly located.

And if you have folks that are are doxing in any way that, um, could be very dangerous to that person if it's splayed across everywhere, you know, to kill their job to kill their, um, their relationships to kill their family situations that that now becomes really ugly really dangerous really quick, Absolutely. We need that awareness. We do.

And you know what's fascinating from a tech perspective you mentioned, uh, WiFi Barbie or hello, Barbie.

Um uh, toy talk was the company who put that out. Their CEO is, uh, Oren. Jacob. So toy talk is this company, and they are about a 20 person company. So think about how much money they must have for security think about how many of those 20 people are security professionals.

What we've seen in the IOT space a decade ago where everyone who was these 10 20 person companies throwing together IOT and rushing out the door with no money for security, no money for professionals or technology to make sure things were done right?

And by right?

Of course.

I mean, free for vulnerabilities and, uh, exploits, uh is exactly what we're seeing. The space when we look at the space, be it be it a Barbie or be it an adult toy. These people still think that they're toy makers. They don't realise they now have become a technology company.

Yeah, well, like the, um, I flipper zero is also if you get the right distribution, uh, the right firmware, Uh, you can hack sex toys, right?

You can and go through things like Swiss cheese.

Um, but absolutely. It's everywhere. And that in, like, you are pointing out bringing that into perspective of what is actually happening socially.

How many parents know that they need to go update Barbie, right?

How's that actually going to be used in the real world?

Will it get updates right exactly. That's I already I already have enough stuff to keep up with. I'm not gonna go update Barbie. We're not trying to buy one. That's I'll buy the other one. The analogue Barbie.

OK, that that's a part of why Wolf and I describe securing sexuality as being about what safe sex looks like in a digital age. Because we think about teaching kids about safe sex and you know, ST I prevention and domestic violence prevention and dating violence prevention. But we don't think about the fact that middle schoolers are sending risque photos.

We don't think about the fact that college kids are not meeting on campus. They're meeting on Bumble, and we're not carrying that over into the reality of the current world. But then the flip it is, adults aren't either.

You know, adults aren't thinking about the hack ability of their toys. Adults aren't thinking about the fact that even if they're using an app or a toy, that might not be, You know, like connected WiFi wise, it's still using an app to control a pattern it can to control the speed. So at a bare minimum, your phone knows every time you're using it.

You know, they're we're not having those conversations.

Uh, there is a fabulous, um, nonprofit called un hush that's expanding. They've created a whole new sex ed curriculum for K through 12 12th grade, not 12 years old. That focuses on a lot of these things and about teaching kids media literacy as a part of their sex ed curriculum. But that needs to be understood as a lifelong learning endeavour.

Because no matter how old you are, you have to keep up with the emerging technology to keep yourself safe. And so we really like when I'm trying to explain why this matters to mental health providers. Because usually when I talk about securing sexuality to my people, they I get, like, this glazed over.

If I wanted to be a software engineer, I wouldn't be a social worker kind of look, And I agree I, too, cannot laugh.

I understand that concern, but this is the reality that we all live in like the the online world is the water we all swim in, and we don't necessarily have the luxury of opting out of teaching it to our kids or teaching it to ourselves and so recognising that we have to talk about what safe sex and safe relationships look like in a digital age is, I think, a paradigm shift that we're starting to understand needs to happen.

People aren't necessarily sure how to make it happen. And that's where hopefully, some of the work that wolf and I are doing comes into play.

Oh, heck, yeah, that kept right. Because the difference between posting, uh, somebody's phone number on, uh, writing it on the bathroom wall as opposed to putting it in, posting it in four.

Chan, it's a whole different level of magnitude.

Yeah, that's scale.

That's That's how you can do, right?

Bathroom.

So is small, Small scale, uh, for 10 bit bigger, right?

Throw it out there on a huge social media platform or or create some fake account with their phone number on, You know, one of the one number one dating apps, uh, like tinder. Right suddenly. Now everybody has access to your phone number and can do all kinds of fun things with it. So I think I think this was a great discussion today.

Guys, I I'm really sad, but we have to wrap up now.

uh, but you guys go subscribe to, uh, doctor Stephanie and Wolf's, uh, podcast. I flashed the QR. Code up a couple of times for the Spotify link.

Uh, go back to the YouTube channel. You can pause it. I think you can also do that in LinkedIn. By the way, go back and view this episode, and you can pause it and grab it. You guys stay safe. Thank you for grabbing a cup and circling up today.

Thank you, Doctor. Stephanie and Wolf for coming and hanging out and navigating these fun topics.

These were fun, weren't they?

They weren't at all. Scary and terrifying therapy is titillating and exciting.

Ah, so fun. I love it. All right. And you guys go get go get Stephanie's books. They're amazing. They're they're freaking awesome.

And, uh, we will see you guys next week. We are doing this again. It's gonna be every Friday from here until forever. That's that's how it is. Last words.

Yeah, we should We should do last Words.

See, this is why I love Bill. So much. So much.

Uh, Steph Last words. Last word That sounds so ominous. So if you have any closing remarks.

Remember me?

Um, um we have 30 experts from across disciplines and industries coming to really dive deep into all sorts of creative ways that these issues impact ourselves.

Um, our customers, our clients, um, there's nobody that this isn't relevant to. So come and join us in Detroit. Come and hang out. Come in. If you're a technologist, come and meet the people that are recommending your technologies to people. And if you happen to be the other mental health provider listening to this, come and talk to the technologists that are building the stuff that you're telling your clients about.

I like it. Wolf in cybersecurity. As a hacker, we all got into this because we didn't like the systems that were imposed on us. We all got into this because we want to make a difference. We all got into this because we have a little bit of a rebellious streak. I'm sure I'm sure you don't. You don't break systems for a living. If you're like, oh, I will follow all the rules.

Um, And as we progress through life, it's time to start using those skills for good. Many of us already are, and if you are Kudos. But if you're not and you're like, Hey, I wanna make a difference. Here's a way where you can I love it.

Well Oh, I like I wrote on LinkedIn I with these two. We got to get these two back, Rachel, because there's so many different rabbit trails we could go down on these topics.

It's huge, but they just divert.

Oh, I have one question. So me and will II I don't know how just magically convinced. Will will You're coming to Ghan.

So wait, is wolf and stuff coming to?

I wouldn't miss it. I I've never missed one. I've I've been to every single one I've spoken to every single one I will be there I would look forward to see you guys in person and I'll be dragging her along with me because that's what I do.

Ok, good. Because she did not look excited. And I was like No, Steph.

But you're not You're not missing again, are you?

I will be there if I am not speaking somewhere else. I think right now I am going to be there.

Um And what?

What the look you saw on my face was Has climate change become so bad that I can't bust out the sequin coat you love so much?

I was actually going the best direction more than anything else. But I promise you, I owned copious amounts of sparkly clothing. So coat or no coat if if I'm not talking somewhere else, I will be there, and I will be easy to spot. Yeah. Sorry. That was really loud. You're wearing headphones. Sorry. I'm so sorry.

Sorry, but no, I'm so excited.

Oh, my gosh. I'm bringing an entourage. There's gonna be a bunch of people. Come and just do whatever Rachel tells me to do. I think that is a wise A wise plan for you.

So far, it hasn't.

I haven't steered you wrong yet, have I?

No, of course not. Yay! Perfect. I love it. All right. Thank you guys. So much for joining in today. As always. We love you so much. This street.

I mean, we would have fun without you, but it's more fun because you're here, You know, kind of thing. I could have fun in a room all by myself, but I'm glad you're good. I'm so glad. Thanks for grabbing a cup and circling up. We will see you guys again next week. Same bat time, Same bat channels If you, uh, are joining from the linked in, please go follow secure nation.

Uh, I am aligned very closely at this point officially. And please go subscribe to the YouTube at the human API. That's the channel. You'll see my face. And then when you click on it, you'll see Will and me space on the banner. So you know you got the right one. Go follow step and we'll connect with them as well. They're fabulous. If you haven't figured that out yet.

So we will see you next week. This is where we all wave. Bye bye.