Pics or It Didn't Happen: Unpacking Online Infidelity - securing sexuality podcast episode 5510/8/2023
    
Securing Sexuality is the podcast and conference promoting sex positive, science based, and secure interpersonal relationships. We give people tips for safer sex in a digital age. We help sextech innovators and toy designers produce safer products. And we educate mental health and medical professionals on these topics so they can better advise their clients. Securing Sexuality provides sex therapists with continuing education (CEs) for AASECT, SSTAR, and SASH around cyber sexuality and social media, and more.
Links from this week's episode:
Defining Boundaries: the Impact of Social Media on Relationships
In today's increasing digitality, social media and technology have become an integral part of our lives. They have transformed the way we communicate, connect, and build relationships. While they have undoubtedly brought numerous benefits, there are also challenges that come along with them. Here we delve into the impact of social media and technology on relationships and provide strategies on how to navigate these challenges effectively.
The Positive Impact of Social Media and Technology on Relationships
Challenges Posed by Social Media and Technology
Navigating the Challenges
Social media and technology have undoubtedly revolutionized the way we form and maintain relationships. While they bring numerous benefits, they also present challenges that can impact relationships negatively. By recognizing and addressing these challenges through open communication, setting realistic expectations, practicing digital detox, and cultivating trust, couples can successfully navigate the complexities of technology and strengthen their relationships. Remember, technology should enhance our connections, not replace them, and finding a healthy balance is key to maintaining fulfilling and meaningful relationships in the digital age. Key Concepts:
[00:00:00] : Hello and welcome to securing sexuality. The podcast where we discuss the intersection
[00:00:04] : of intimacy and information security. I'm Wolf Goerlich. He's a hacker and I'm Stefani [00:00:10] : Goerlich and she's a sex therapist. And together we're gonna discuss what safe sex [00:00:15] : looks like in a digital age. Specifically on this episode, we're talking about that [00:00:20] : second word. We talk a lot about safety in this podcast. How do you lock this down? How [00:00:25] : do you lock that down? A friendly reminder to change your passwords and put on multifactor. But [00:00:30] : But what is sex and what is crossing a line? This is what I want to ask you love [00:00:40] : of my life because there is a lot of content out there. There is a lot of interaction [00:00:47] : out there, Uh, and it's come away since email in old school chat rooms. So when is [00:00:55] : someone actually having sex? When is someone crossing that line? I mean, do we want [00:01:01] : to limit it to sex? Or do we want to talk about emotional closeness because both [00:01:07] : of those are going to vary person by person? I. I have known many people who have [00:01:13] : said that what I'm doing doesn't count as sex or doesn't count as intimacy, because, um, I've [00:01:19] : never been in the same room with the other person, or I've never, um, touched the [00:01:24] : other person or the other person has never seen me naked. So it's really hard to [00:01:31] : say what counts as sex online because I think that every person and every sort of [00:01:37] : partner group marriage or polycule or whatever they're they're forming, they're gonna [00:01:43] : have their own ideas about that. Well, in which case, uh, yes, was it relationship [00:01:48] : anarchy? Let's let's put relationship anarchy aside for a minute. And let's jump [00:01:52] : right back to the intro of our podcast. What is intimacy? How how can you determine [00:02:01] : if you've crossed the line into intimacy? And I think this is particularly important [00:02:06] : if you have a partner, right? Like if you have a partner and, uh, putting aside Polly [00:02:12] : for for just a minute, putting aside anarchy for just a minute. We love you are poly [00:02:15] : listeners and our anarchists. But putting that aside for just a minute when you are [00:02:21] : in a relationship and your expectations are, um not Matt, right? When when something [00:02:28] : goes awry and you're like, Hey, was that was that cheating was that infidelity? It's [00:02:32] : usually around intimacy or either either sex or or emotional. So let's broaden the [00:02:38] : term. OK, So one researcher who studies cyber affairs and online infidelity says [00:02:48] : the infidelity is based on three things, and I'm focusing on infidelity. Because [00:02:53] : if we know what falls outside of the bounds of most relationship agreements, then [00:02:59] : we kind of get an idea of what they're doing within those newly defined parameters, which [00:03:05] : is a really fancy way of saying, If we understand what cheating is, we know what [00:03:09] : cheating looks like. There you go, baby. I have been doing a lot of academic writing, you [00:03:17] : guys. So three things that kind of define infidelity. The first is that usually most [00:03:25] : relationships not all again shout out poly folks, um, involve emotional and sexual [00:03:32] : exclusivity. So the minute we have any kind of sexual involvement with somebody other [00:03:38] : than our primary partner now we're starting to look at infidelity secondly, and again [00:03:45] : shout out to our poly folks because infidelity is defined in part by the secrecy [00:03:49] : it's kept hidden. It's kept, um, away from the other person in our life. We are not [00:03:57] : being honest and transparent about it. We're not negotiating with it. They are not [00:04:01] : experiencing compersion in our infidelity. And third, for, um, online cheating. It's [00:04:09] : a breach of trust that can create, um, substantial challenges in the relationship. So [00:04:16] : this goes beyond Where were you and who are you with? But this goes into, Well, you [00:04:23] : were doing it in our own bedroom or you were doing it while you were sitting right [00:04:26] : next to me and the the level of trust breaking that can happen when we are committing [00:04:36] : affairs or or cheating or having emotional relationships online can actually feel [00:04:43] : even more hurtful than in person because it can literally happen with your spouse [00:04:49] : in the room. And that level of trust damage can be really hard to overcome. All right, so [00:04:55] : emotional, sexual secrecy, of breach of trust. You said something in there I wanted [00:05:01] : to pull out. What? What did you say? Compersion. What is what is compersion? Compersion [00:05:05] : is a term from our polym community. That is the joy I feel in my partner's joy. Yeah, So [00:05:14] : our poly folks genuinely feel happy and good and pleased to know that their partner [00:05:21] : is having a good time with their other partners to know that somebody else loves [00:05:26] : their partner as much as they do. But there isn't the same sense of exclusivity jealousy [00:05:33] : that exists in monogamous relationships. And so they they either very organically [00:05:39] : or they strive to work through those more negative feelings so that they can then [00:05:43] : feel compersion joy for their partners joy in their other relationships. All right, so [00:05:49] : the other the other day, we were at a concert and we're walking into the venue and [00:05:53] : you stopped. You're like, Oh, damn, I'm like, Hey, baby, you need a moment. Would [00:05:58] : that be compersion? Because I'm like, Oh, that that there's there's my girl. She [00:06:03] : is so excited That conversion. Yeah, although, to be fair, what made me say damn [00:06:11] : which is fashion aesthetic? So I think you have higher degrees of comparison than [00:06:15] : I do because you took it in a sexy, flirty way that wasn't in my head at all, which [00:06:21] : I think, um, is really representative of the two of us in some kind of funny ways, right? And [00:06:28] : I, I think like secrecy makes sense. So we can we can probably table that one for [00:06:33] : a minute. Uh, a breach of trust is interesting. Where where else are people gonna [00:06:38] : be on their phones or on their computers, if not in their home or before you go to [00:06:45] : bed or when you wake up early? Exactly. It's such an organic part of how we move [00:06:51] : through the day and how we live now that we don't really think about it. Um, and [00:06:57] : that does create opportunities for deeper and different kinds of harm. When we talk [00:07:04] : about online infidelity because when we're talking about in person, we do actually [00:07:09] : have to think about it, right? We have to be strategic about, you know, where am [00:07:14] : I gonna meet my para, or are we going to be seen by somebody that knows my spouse? Are [00:07:18] : we likely to be seen by my spouse? I have to be physically away. So what does my [00:07:24] : spouse's schedule look like? There's actually a lot of maybe not thoughtfulness. That's [00:07:30] : not the right word, because, um, it's not a thoughtful thing to do at all, but a [00:07:34] : degree of calculation that goes into the in real world decisions, Um, that we don't [00:07:42] : necessarily have to think about online, and so as a result, we tend to end up doing [00:07:46] : really hurtful things with people that we love very close to us physically, Um, to [00:07:51] : we would never imagine sitting on the couch and having a conversation or making out [00:07:56] : with our Paramo while our spouse is sitting on the other end of the couch watching [00:08:01] : a TV show. But that becomes very easy to do with online affairs, and that can be [00:08:07] : really painful when they all come out. I was thinking more about in terms of the [00:08:13] : the guy perspective and, yeah, I, uh, obviously this is not the norm. But, you know, I [00:08:20] : I've had conversations, but, like, Look, I was just had a couple of friends and we're [00:08:25] : on a group chat and we're talking back and forth and, uh, my wife found out and she [00:08:31] : is like, Why are you cheating on me? Bla bla bla bla? Um And so they they're This [00:08:36] : is why I really want to get by the time we're done with this episode, like a good [00:08:39] : definition of what is intimate and what is is sexuality when we're talking about [00:08:44] : online, because oftentimes, in the man's perspective, he's not doing anything wrong. And [00:08:50] : where else would you talk to people? You talk to people on your on your phone, you [00:08:53] : talk to people sitting down. This isn't like the old days where you would during [00:08:57] : 9 to 5. I'm at the work computer. When I go home from 8 to 11. I am on my home computer [00:09:04] : and you would go to the room with your computer, right? Uh, now it's wherever you [00:09:09] : are, and I think that is fair. People are allowed to have friendships. People are [00:09:16] : allowed to have relationships beyond just their spouse. I personally do not believe [00:09:21] : that you having friendships with other women is a form of infidelity. And if you're [00:09:28] : talking to your female friends online, which you often do, I'm fine with that. But [00:09:33] : that is the relationship agreement that you and I have. And I also know people for [00:09:39] : whom that would be very much out of bounds, that they believe that if you are in [00:09:44] : an exclusive relationship with somebody, that they should be the primary opposite [00:09:48] : sex person in your life and that it gives a bad impression or that it could lead [00:09:54] : to temptation to have opposite gender friendships. We might agree with that we might [00:10:01] : disagree with that. But that's part of why pinning down one definition is so hard [00:10:06] : is because so much of this really is the couple work. It is talking to each other [00:10:11] : and determining what feels safe and comfortable for you. Is it also the hiding side [00:10:16] : of things? Because you're right. I do have a lot of friends, and many of my friendships [00:10:21] : were formed before we even knew, uh, knew gender. Uh, is it Is it cool to say I don't [00:10:26] : see gender can? Is that a cool thing? Probably not, because people really want their [00:10:31] : gender seen and they want their gender affirmed. And that's kind of the whole point [00:10:35] : of gender affirming culture that's fair. So instead of being like I don't see colour, everybody [00:10:41] : saved them in my book to just be like, Oh, no, I celebrate your she and I celebrate [00:10:47] : your enness and it's not to make everybody. So yeah, this is why I talked to you, because [00:10:53] : I I'm always trying to catch up. But when we were back in the chat room, I do have [00:10:57] : a number of friends who I met who I didn't know what gender they were right. We just [00:11:01] : had a screen name back in the day when we're, you know, hackers hanging out in IRC. Uh, but, you [00:11:07] : know, if I'm talking to someone or someone says something funny or whatever or I [00:11:10] : I show you, you know? Hey, look at this. This is funny. Is that secrecy component [00:11:15] : part of it? Like, in other words, do you see within a couple of works you do? Or [00:11:20] : do you maybe have statistics on how often people are hiding messages from other people [00:11:24] : from their partners? Yeah, The secrecy thing is really key. And, you know, in my [00:11:31] : couple work, I break out the difference between privacy and secrecy. Right? Privacy [00:11:35] : is me knowing that you're talking to female friends and giving you space to do that, not [00:11:42] : reading over your shoulder. Not expecting you to show me not being worried or uncomfortable [00:11:47] : about the conversations you're having. Just letting you have a space that is private [00:11:52] : and yours, which is different than secrecy. Which would be I don't know, you're having [00:11:57] : those conversations because you're actively hiding them from me. And when I ask what [00:12:02] : you're up to, you say, Oh, I'm just talking to Nick or you say, Oh, nothing. I was [00:12:07] : just responding to a work email. There's a difference between having transparent [00:12:12] : privacy, meaning I know what you're doing. But the details are none of my business. Is [00:12:18] : somebody actively hiding something from their partner, and no matter what they're [00:12:23] : hiding, the minute it becomes a secret the minute it becomes an act of deception, that's [00:12:30] : where we start to run into emotional infidelity. And not all emotional infidelity [00:12:36] : is sexual or romantic. If somebody is spending 20 hours a day in their online game [00:12:43] : quest instead of hanging out with their spouse and helping out around the house and [00:12:49] : playing with the kids, that's a form of online infidelity as well, because it's taking [00:12:54] : emotional time and emotional energy away from people that you also have commitments [00:13:00] : to. Yeah, so if you're you're taking time away from your family and and your primary [00:13:05] : partner, obviously that's a problem. But games I hadn't even thought about games, right? So, like, what [00:13:10] : are the technologies involved in online infidelity? Because I hadn't thought about [00:13:18] : games. Obviously, I think about things like chat, uh, social media. I mean, those [00:13:24] : do play a role And part of the trick is is that we don't even necessarily know because [00:13:30] : those are the things that people are keeping secrets. So maybe I know that you have [00:13:36] : a League of Legends account, and I know that you play it for an hour or two on the [00:13:43] : weekends. It's a it's a decompress it it's a destressor. You're fine. What I don't [00:13:48] : know is that you have three other accounts and those are paid subscriptions. And [00:13:52] : you're constantly fun funnelling money into these secret accounts. That's a form [00:13:57] : of online infidelity. Um, because the secrecy becomes a part of it and the, um, layers [00:14:04] : of financial investment become a part of it. Uh, we see lots of people that have [00:14:09] : multiple email addresses. Right now, 8% of adults that are in relationships admit [00:14:14] : to having secret accounts, um, to hide messages and to hide posts from their significant [00:14:20] : others. So maybe, you know my I don't know Reddit profile, but you don't know I have [00:14:26] : four ALTs. Those are all ways in which people are, um, creating scenarios where secrecy [00:14:34] : is possible. Um, I thought it was really interesting that about 7% of all people [00:14:41] : find their affair partners on social media so often in a way that feels very public [00:14:48] : facing. But when you look at dating websites like people that are act actively trying [00:14:54] : to sneak out and present a single, as opposed to just meeting people through their [00:15:01] : social media, that is usually much more connected to their real life, that number [00:15:05] : actually doubles for guys so about I'm sorry triples for guys. About five ish percent [00:15:12] : of women are on part. Partnered women are on dating websites, but 15% of men on dating [00:15:20] : websites are already in relationships. So we have some people that I think are just [00:15:26] : meeting socially, which is exactly what social media would indicate. And then we [00:15:33] : have a smaller group that is actively seeking out online affairs in a much more sort [00:15:38] : of old school proactive way. We're gonna get to dating websites. But I in my mind, that [00:15:44] : is, that's clearly where you cross the line. Like if you're setting up a dating website, you [00:15:53] : know, there there is no confusion in your mind when you're posting your your pictures [00:16:00] : and setting up your profile. But speaking of dating websites, uh, and that reminds [00:16:05] : me of your emails, right? We we oftentimes caution people and give advice to people [00:16:10] : when we're doing a live event or when we're doing a consult. Uh, set up a separate [00:16:15] : email address for your dating profile. Set up a separate email address for your sensitive [00:16:20] : banking account. I don't don't have one email address to rule them all. In case that [00:16:25] : one email address it's compromised or identified and tagged. Uh, so it makes sense [00:16:29] : to me. People would have multiple email addresses. I'm still really, uh, I don't [00:16:34] : know if I find it quaint or I find it unbelievable that someone would be like flirting [00:16:39] : over email because, I, I get annoyed every time I see email message. Oh, not another [00:16:44] : one. I think we definitely saw an uptick in that during covid. I think people weren't [00:16:49] : able to socialise and connect and meet the way they would have in years past. We [00:16:55] : lost a lot of our social outlets, and so especially workplace affairs, became more [00:17:02] : accessible and more easier to fall into because what could start as sort of just [00:17:11] : like playful banter in the chat system turns into, you know, just a little bit too [00:17:18] : warm of an an email sending back to somebody that then evolves into what would have [00:17:25] : been like an office cooler romance where it's just flirty and casual, and everybody [00:17:29] : knows nobody means anything by it. But there's something about being online, and [00:17:34] : having that distance that I feel like increases the intensity of these experiences [00:17:38] : for people because they're not right in front of us. So we create them in our mind [00:17:45] : and therefore online relationships tend to feel much deeper, much faster. We tend [00:17:51] : to get very infatuated very quickly because for the most part, we're not actually [00:17:56] : thinking about the actual human. We're thinking about the picture of them we have [00:18:00] : built for ourselves, and it's a very idealistic perception that can often fall apart [00:18:06] : when we finally do meet in person. But until that point, it's really easy to fall [00:18:12] : into something that we don't necessarily intend to set up, And I think that's where [00:18:16] : a lot of those email based sort of flirtations begin is They start out just as banter, and [00:18:24] : then they get deeper and deeper, and then we've created something in our heads that [00:18:28] : feels very real and very different than what it might be if we were still all standing [00:18:33] : around a water cooler. I can see that I can see that. And again, I think that's why [00:18:38] : I don't know. I personally believe it's important to have all sorts of different [00:18:41] : kinds of friends, because if I've got someone who's like Oh, by the way, just checking [00:18:46] : in on you to make sure that you know we're all set for this upcoming meeting or just [00:18:51] : want to send you a reminder about this event or just wanted to see if you could help [00:18:55] : me with this A project who then in the email thread also says something like, Oh, you [00:18:59] : know, you look nice today or oh, by the way, I, you know, was was thinking about [00:19:03] : you because I'm on this trip and, you know, I saw this type of food or oh, by the [00:19:07] : way, uh, it's fall time, and I you know, I really like, uh, apple cider. I really [00:19:12] : like Pumpkin Spice, like, which one do you like? You know those types of conversations, I [00:19:16] : think, are just friendly conversations to have an email they can be. They can also [00:19:24] : build into something very different, which is why those conversations around each [00:19:29] : person's comfort level with that and the boundaries that they set for themselves [00:19:33] : and what their own sort of morals and ethics are around that. And I don't wanna sound [00:19:38] : like super fifties prudish like No, no, don't ever talk to your male boss. So you're [00:19:43] : leading him on. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is that things that [00:19:49] : would have been received as casual friendliness, I think, can be misread as more [00:19:56] : when it's happening online. And so when so many of us moved online during the pandemic, it [00:20:04] : became much easier for us to create deeper and perhaps more intense ideas of what [00:20:11] : these relationships are. Then we start acting in accordance with that perception. And [00:20:17] : if the other person responds insane, we we have the potential. If everybody's single [00:20:23] : for a lovely meet, cute. But if we're not single for a big problem, I think a good [00:20:29] : way to stay away from this type of problem is, uh is, you know, keeping people at [00:20:35] : a distance right? Which gets to another thing that I want to talk to you about. Uh, what [00:20:40] : about like, the Instagram dances that all the girls are doing, or the the the only [00:20:47] : fan sites that so many people sign up for either to produce content or to support [00:20:52] : their local content producers. Uh, you know, support your your local artists, I suppose. Where [00:20:59] : where does that fall in? Because you don't necessarily have a personal relationship. I [00:21:05] : mean, you, you may like recognise the person's instagram posts. And if you are a [00:21:10] : subscriber to the only fans, they may be sending you private messages. But I think [00:21:13] : we all know that it's not like they're actually private messaging you. It's not the [00:21:17] : way these relationships I say. Relationships and air quotes work where where does [00:21:23] : that fall on the spectrum? And this goes back to what I was saying in terms of sexuality, because [00:21:26] : that's not necessarily intimacy, right? I mean by nature, if you're just putting [00:21:31] : content out there and or just consuming content, Um, that's not an intimate relationship. It [00:21:40] : really depends on the mind of the consumer, though, because there absolutely are [00:21:45] : people out there who genuinely believe that they have connected intimate, deeply [00:21:50] : personal relationships with their content creators. You know, they absolutely believe [00:21:57] : that those per private messages that they're paying for are truly private and only [00:22:01] : for them. The illusion of that intimacy. The illusion of that connection is part [00:22:07] : of what these content creators are selling and that it's totally OK as long as the [00:22:14] : people purchasing it are able to keep those boundaries clear In their mind. I have [00:22:20] : seen relationships fall apart because somebody gets way too into their influencer [00:22:26] : way too into their content creator way too into their favourite cam girl. And they [00:22:32] : genuinely start to disconnect from their real world relationship and believe that [00:22:38] : they have a relationship with this online personality. In those instances, I don't [00:22:45] : think it's as easy as it feels for somebody that is better able to self regulate [00:22:49] : and separate those two sort of relationships out like you're describing. Hm. Well, I [00:22:58] : mean, maybe it's easier for for you and me, right? Because if I see a girl dancing [00:23:02] : on Instagram, I'm like, Oh, she's having fun and you and I are very open and you [00:23:07] : and I have a great relationship, and I don't feel that I need any needs met. Other [00:23:11] : than go Oh, there's a pretty girl dancing and I'm hoping there's a degree of, uh, conversion. Now [00:23:15] : that I've got that word in my back pocket on your side is in part this driven by [00:23:21] : the opposite partner being unhappy or unsatisfied like Are you more likely to fall [00:23:28] : into these problems if if you feel like something's missing in your relationship, you [00:23:33] : know that's what's really fascinating when we look at the research on infidelity [00:23:38] : on and offline because it's first of all, a really common problem. About one in four [00:23:45] : marriages are going to experience infidelity at some point. Um, but what's odd is [00:23:52] : that usually it's not happening because the people involved are miserable in their [00:23:57] : relationship. 56% of men who've cheated and 34% of women who've cheated tell researchers [00:24:05] : that they would rate their marriage as happy or very happy. So it's not necessarily [00:24:11] : a case of I'm miserable here, and I'm getting something that I need met elsewhere. Often [00:24:17] : it is very similar to what you describe where it starts out as a a more social friendship [00:24:25] : and evolves into something because of, um, the intensity of the online experience. But [00:24:33] : it's not necessarily happening because people are unhappy in their relationship and [00:24:38] : that, I think, is really, really curious. Um, we do know that the more online somebody [00:24:45] : is, the less likely they are to be happy in their relationship. Really? Yeah. Coming [00:24:51] : back to your instagram dancing girls, Um, we know that the more social media usage [00:24:58] : you have in a relationship, the higher the levels of marital problems. So not just [00:25:03] : infidelity, but more arguing, more jealousy. And they're even finding a correlation [00:25:09] : between social media use and divorce rates. There. There's actually, um, you know, the [00:25:16] : more the study looked at facetime, the more people use FaceTime. I'm sorry. Not facetime [00:25:21] : Facebook. A 20% increase in their Facebook time was correlated with an almost doubling [00:25:27] : in their divorce rates, which really blew me away. That doesn't blow me away when [00:25:33] : you first started out and like Oh, no, you know, Are we Are we are we headed for [00:25:37] : trouble because you and I seemingly live online? Uh, I honestly interact with you [00:25:42] : more online than in person some days, and even right now, as we're recording this [00:25:47] : podcast, we are about what, 20 ft away, you're in your office and I'm in my study, but [00:25:54] : oftentimes you spend all day to your office, and I spent all day at my study. I'm [00:25:57] : like, Oh, no, we live online. That's putting us at risk But I think it it fits with [00:26:03] : my preconceived notion of Facebook being toxic. II I can I can buy. If you spend [00:26:08] : more time on Facebook, you're more likely to be unhappy. And they will say that they [00:26:13] : found that people that do not use social media at all have reported being 11% happier [00:26:19] : in their relationships than those that do use social media. So, you know, if you're [00:26:25] : feeling like 9% unhappy with your relationship, just cancel your Facebook account [00:26:30] : and you'll be back to 100% in no time. Oh, I, I love that. I love that a lot. That's [00:26:35] : how it works, right? Uh, no, but we'll go with it. I mean, it's it's it's it's close [00:26:40] : enough. We're we're fine with that. The, uh I gotta tell you, I, I felt very happy [00:26:46] : with our relationship since you and I got off Twitter. So, you know, maybe that's [00:26:50] : maybe this works. Were you unhappy with our relationship when we were on Twitter? No, I [00:26:56] : just feel very happy with our Who were you tweeting at, baby? I'll tell you, um, no [00:27:01] : secrecy. I will show you my D MS. Sometimes when they get spicy, I show you, I'm [00:27:05] : like, I think this person's flirting with me and you're like, Yeah, I. I think so, too. Like, Oh, it's [00:27:11] : a good time to mention I'm out hanging out with my wife, and she's fantastic. So [00:27:15] : I feel like you've asked me a lot of questions and I've never actually answered the [00:27:20] : what counts as sex. Yeah, and I And so when I got into this, I was going at it with [00:27:27] : the side of I hear people going. Man, I'm so annoyed because my partner is like, you're [00:27:33] : cheating and all I'm doing is talking to this person or all I'm doing is you know, uh, I've [00:27:38] : got an account with this This, uh, performer on only fans or all I'm doing is, you [00:27:45] : know, having this ongoing conversation. I'm not cheating, and it seems to be now [00:27:52] : again, this is usually men who are telling me about this, so I don't have any statistics. I [00:27:56] : don't have any facts, but it seems to be a perception that the line has shifted. Or [00:28:01] : at least the line is in a different spot for some women in some relationships than [00:28:06] : some men in some relationships. I did not enter this conversation expecting you to [00:28:11] : tell me. Oh, and by the way, you know, 15% of of, uh, married men are meeting their [00:28:19] : affair partners on dating sites or, uh or that, like, you know, I don't know. I didn't [00:28:27] : expect, Like, people are actually getting a date. If you're on a dating site, you [00:28:30] : know you're cheating, right? And maybe it's just people are not going to come up [00:28:33] : to me like Yeah, I don't know why she's so mad at me. I was just hanging out on match [00:28:37] : dot com and flirting with all these girls. Why would she possibly have a problem [00:28:41] : with that? Clearly, that's a problem. So I was really thinking about this going into [00:28:45] : this episode. More of what is cyber sex, right? What what is that dry definition? Because [00:28:53] : it seems that we as a society don't have a common understanding and that lack of [00:28:59] : common understanding breeds into what you've always talked about, which is good. Relationships [00:29:03] : are built on equality of expectations. And if you don't have a quality of expectations [00:29:07] : or on your online behaviour, of course you're gonna have the perception that someone [00:29:11] : else is doing something they shouldn't. What you're describing is what I like to [00:29:15] : call the pick or it didn't happen. Argument meaning I. I I'm I'm not having an online [00:29:20] : affair because they've never seen me naked or I've never seen them naked or anything [00:29:25] : I've seen that was R rated or beyond I paid for, and that's just like watching porn. That [00:29:31] : doesn't count if that's your relationship agreement. Great. But I've been in relationships [00:29:37] : where important life moments were happening big, like happy things, big scary things [00:29:44] : and that I wasn't the first person my partner was talking to about those moments. And [00:29:50] : that's a form of online infidelity. That's a form of emotional infidelity. It's not [00:29:55] : just about the well, there's no picks. It didn't happen. It's about the Where are [00:30:00] : you putting your time? Where are you putting your emotional energy? Who are you investing [00:30:04] : in? Who are you supporting and who are you? Let fall by the wayside when your priorities [00:30:11] : get misaligned with your relationship and that can happen fully clothed on or offline. But [00:30:19] : I think it's really important to recognise that when we talk about infidelity, when [00:30:25] : we talk about betrayals of trust and of, um, intimacy of sharing deep, intimate parts [00:30:33] : of ourselves with somebody outside of our relationship that absolutely goes beyond [00:30:39] : what may or may not be shown in a photograph. And I think that's what some of the [00:30:44] : people that come up to you and say those things should be thinking of is not just [00:30:48] : what am I doing. But how long am I doing? Who am I doing it with? And what am I sacrificing [00:30:53] : or asking my partner to sacrifice so that I can build those relationships? And you [00:30:59] : called it the what pix or didn't happen? Rule The Pixar didn't happen. Effect a fact. OK, the [00:31:06] : idea that if I'm not doing anything overtly sexual, I'm not cheating at all. See, this [00:31:11] : whole conversation makes me want to open my phone after this. Say I do this or do [00:31:15] : that or do that, make sure we're on the same page. I also want to say that this conversation [00:31:21] : should not inspire mistrust in the people listening to this I absolutely do not want [00:31:29] : to see your phone because I think that if we get to a point in our relationship where [00:31:33] : I have to check your phone in order to feel safe in our relationship. But something [00:31:38] : has already gone sideways. So please, listeners do not take our conversation as like [00:31:45] : me, giving you permission to increase your surveillance or monitoring of your partner [00:31:50] : or to feel like you, too have to share a social media profile or any of that like [00:31:55] : codependent and meshed behaviour that we see in a lot of, um, later technology adopters, I'll [00:32:02] : say. And you know it is OK for people in relationships to have privacy and that privacy [00:32:09] : can absolutely include their friendships and other supportive people in their life. But [00:32:14] : it is on each and every one of us to think about, um, what role does each person [00:32:20] : have in our life? What commitments have we made to them, and how are we honouring [00:32:25] : or fail to honour those and how we allocate our time and our vulnerability and our [00:32:32] : sexuality and our affection? So we think about those three things we had intimacy, either [00:32:39] : emotional or sexual secrecy. Um, and we had impact in the the natural like POY wants [00:32:44] : to like or C for word for impact. Like the beach of trust we need. We need another [00:32:50] : word for that. By the way, there there needs to be another, like intimacy. Secrecy, Blake. I [00:32:55] : don't know what that word would be, but there needs to be one. I agree. So given [00:33:00] : those three, if you were to give people advice to avoid online infidelity accidentally, we [00:33:07] : know that intentional online infidelity. And you just gave really good advice for [00:33:12] : people who may be concerned about infidelity. And I've I've seen speaking of Tik, toks [00:33:17] : and instagrams and everything you know, videos floating around about like the crazy [00:33:21] : girlfriend where she's like, I can't, you know, search his phone. But I must search [00:33:25] : his phone. There's a really one funny one going on. If I can find it, I'll put the [00:33:29] : link in show notes, but, uh what, uh, what would you advise a partner to do to be [00:33:36] : thinking about giving those three things, um, to to avoid falling into accidental [00:33:43] : online infidelity? I think we need to negotiate our technology use the same way we [00:33:50] : negotiate the rest of our relationships. You know, if if you were working 100 hours [00:33:56] : a week, I would probably come. If when you work 100 hour weeks, what do I do? I come [00:34:04] : to you and I say, This isn't healthy for us. You're putting too much of your energy [00:34:09] : over there and it's having an impact on our relationship. We need to recalibrate. We [00:34:14] : need to Reprioritize. We negotiate and renegotiate our relationships all the time. But [00:34:21] : I don't know that we're doing a very good job of negotiating technology of actually [00:34:26] : sitting down and telling each other This is what feels like safe and healthy tech [00:34:30] : use to me. And this is what starts to feel like I'm being abandoned or that you're [00:34:35] : putting your emotional energy into other places. And I can't tell everybody out there [00:34:43] : what they should look like. But I can tell them that they absolutely should be having [00:34:48] : these conversations and where they're running into friction points. Where is somebody [00:34:53] : saying I don't get it? I don't understand why you think that me having friendships [00:34:56] : with other women is in is a form of cheating. Explain. Let's talk about it. Let's [00:35:02] : negotiate it. Let's find common ground. We can't do that if we never start those [00:35:07] : conversations at all, and everybody is allowed to have their boundaries and everybody [00:35:11] : is allowed to have their hard limits. But it's much easier to stay within the relationship [00:35:18] : agreements when we've actually taken the time to form relationship agreements. And [00:35:22] : when we're not just waiting for one of us to cross the line and then have to deal [00:35:27] : with the fallout of that good advice, I think it's always good to know where those [00:35:31] : lines are. It's always good to have those things up front. All right with that. Thank [00:35:36] : you so much for tuning in to securing sexuality. Your source for the information [00:35:40] : you need to protect yourself and your relationships. Securing sexuality is brought [00:35:45] : to you by the Bound Together Foundation, a 501 C three nonprofit. From the bedroom [00:35:49] : to the cloud, we're here to help you navigate safe sex in a digital age. Be sure [00:35:54] : to check out our website, securing sexual dot com for links to more information about [00:35:58] : the topics we discussed here today. I'm assuming knowing you you've got a long list [00:36:03] : of citations. I have a decent number of citations. If anybody's interested in the [00:36:08] : statistics and facts on online infidelity, you will find those at securing sexuality [00:36:15] : dot com. You'll also find a link to our upcoming live conference in Detroit, which [00:36:21] : you can get 15% off with the code pod 15. And once you've gotten back from our website, join [00:36:29] : us again here for more fascinating conversations about the intersection of sexuality 
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