the Pleasure Engineer: A Conversation with Raven Faber - securing sexuality podcast episode 763/10/2024
    
Securing Sexuality is the podcast and conference promoting sex positive, science based, and secure interpersonal relationships. We give people tips for safer sex in a digital age. We help sextech innovators and toy designers produce safer products. And we educate mental health and medical professionals on these topics so they can better advise their clients. Securing Sexuality provides sex therapists with continuing education (CEs) for AASECT, SSTAR, and SASH around cyber sexuality and social media, and more.
Links from this week's episode: 
Safety, Education, & Inclusivity: Transforming the Sex Toy Industry
The sex toy industry has seen a significant growth in recent years, with more and more individuals embracing their sexuality and exploring new avenues of pleasure. With this increased demand, it becomes crucial to prioritize safety and quality within the sex toy industry. In this blog post, we will discuss why safety and quality are of utmost importance, and how manufacturers, retailers, and consumers can contribute to creating a safer and more reliable market for sex toys.
One of the primary reasons why safety and quality should be prioritized in the sex toy industry is to ensure the protection of consumer health and well-being. Sex toys come into direct contact with intimate parts of the body, making it essential for them to be manufactured with materials that are safe and non-toxic. Low-quality products made from harmful substances such as phthalates, lead, or cadmium can cause serious health issues like skin irritation, allergies, infections, and even long-term damage to reproductive organs. By focusing on safety and quality, manufacturers can minimize the risks associated with using sex toys and ensure a positive and healthy experience for consumers. Safety and quality play a vital role in building trust and credibility within the sex toy industry. Consumers rely on manufacturers and retailers to provide them with products that are not only effective but also safe to use. By adhering to strict quality control measures and using high-grade materials, companies can establish a reputation for reliability and gain the trust of their customers. This trust is crucial for the long-term success of businesses and for encouraging consumers to make informed decisions when purchasing sex toys. The sex toy industry, like any other consumer goods industry, is subject to various regulatory standards and guidelines. These standards are in place to ensure that products meet specific safety requirements and are suitable for consumer use. Manufacturers must comply with these regulations to guarantee that their products are free from hazards and are labeled accurately. Regulatory bodies such as the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) in the United States and similar organizations worldwide work diligently to protect consumers from potential harm. By prioritizing safety and quality, companies can ensure compliance with these regulations and contribute to a safer market for sex toys. Another aspect often overlooked in the sex toy industry is the environmental impact of manufacturing and disposing of these products. By emphasizing safety and quality, manufacturers can also adopt more sustainable practices. This includes using eco-friendly materials, reducing packaging waste, and implementing recycling programs. By doing so, the industry can work towards minimizing its carbon footprint and contributing to a greener future. Ensuring safety and quality in the sex toy industry requires active participation from consumers as well. It is essential for individuals to educate themselves about the potential risks associated with using low-quality and unsafe sex toys. By making informed decisions and purchasing products from reputable manufacturers and retailers, consumers can protect themselves from harm and contribute to the demand for safer products. Manufacturers and retailers can also promote consumer education by providing accurate information about product materials, safety certifications, and proper usage guidelines. The importance of safety and quality in the sex toy industry cannot be overstated. By prioritizing consumer health and well-being, building trust and credibility, complying with regulatory standards, reducing environmental impact, and promoting consumer education, the industry can create a safer and more reliable market for sex toys. Manufacturers, retailers, and consumers all have a role to play in ensuring that safety and quality remain at the forefront of this rapidly growing industry. Together, we can create an environment where individuals can confidently explore their sexuality without compromising their health and well-being. Key Concepts:
Hello and welcome to Securing Sexuality. The podcast where we discuss the intersection of intimacy and information security. I'm Wolf Goerlich. He's a hacker and I'm Stefani Goerlich. She's a sex therapist. And together we're going to discuss what safe sex looks like in the digital age. And today we are talking with Raven Faber, the founder and CEO of EngErotics.
Hey. Hi. Thanks for coming. Thanks to you for having me. It's good to be here. So good to have you. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you. This is a really nice start to my week. I don't always get to begin my week with a podcast, so thank you very much for inviting me our pleasure. Although you do get to start some weeks with television shows, we're gonna get to that. I want to ask you about that, but tell us, tell us a bit about your company. Oh, wow. Gosh, let me start with the standard boilerplate pitch. So EngErotics specializes in the design and development of intimacy devices, and we also specialise in the formulation and manufacture of CBD infused intimate body care products. Um, I founded Giros in July of 2016. I was a new mom. My son was seven months old. Um, and I founded the company in direct response to, uh, lack of laws, rules, regulations, formulation, guidelines. Um, the lack of QC [quality control] in the world of intimacy devices. So, uh, really, you know, engineering engineers are are here to help keep the public at large, safe, and products for sex and intimacy should not be excluded. Uh, by that standard of care. Unfortunately, they are, though, as as you all know, That was one of the things that I thought was so fascinating. When Wolf and I were in Europe this last fall, we were at a store in Amsterdam that specialises exclusively in gold. I've been to that. I think I've been to that store. Sorry to interrupt, but yes, the condo. I have been there. Did you take their class to become a certified condo? No, I did not. I did not. Admittedly, when I was there, Um, I was, uh, pregnant and very tired. So, uh, like, getting a really, you know, difficult discipline. I can respect the boundaries. It was a cool store, though. Sorry to. Sorry to interrupt. I just don't I don't meet very many people that have, like, Yeah, I did. You go to the pink elephant too? You know, the neon did you? You went to go see the show. Oh, yeah, right. Clarify for the audience because, you know, Wolf has a job where they might not be thrilled. We were actually in Amsterdam for an advanced sexual attitudes reassessment, and that it was part of my homework. One of the assignments was to pick something in the red light district and have that experience so that we could then sit and process and reflect with the group. So that is how my for, um, very goody two shoes husband got dragged into the red light district with his wife. But but But what I what I was thinking was when we took our condom technology class, one of the things that they talked about was like the ISO standards for condoms. And I had never thought about that before because we think about these things as like, you know, a dollar device that you immediately throw away and that might live in your wallet forever. It had never occurred to me that there are ISO standards for condoms. But now I'm curious. Are there similar standards for insert sim for sex toys? There are now, um uh iso 3533. the first edition was published on September 2021. And so ISO 3533 is titled Sex Toys, Design and safety requirements for products in direct contact with genitalia, the anus or both. So, uh, yeah, that would describe that nicely. So we didn't always have, um, and ISO standard, um, it, you know, as of a few years ago, we do. Um, but as you know, it's not a requirement to follow these standards. So, um and I, you know, should it be that's like a whole another conversation. But the short answer is yes. Yes. Now we do have one. I actually don't think I did know that it wasn't a requirement. I It all sounds so fancy. And I mean, we are based in Detroit, so, you know, we have the auto industry, and I'm very used to driving around and seeing like, giant factories that have, like, ISO 9000 certified like flags and banners. And so it never occurred to me that these fancy like requirements or parameters that I learned about aren't They're just like guidelines. That's fascinating. Now I'm not. No, I'm not an ISO expert. So take this with brain assault. And I don't know if all ISO standards are the same are the same across the board, you know, encounter. I'm going to look that up. I'm gonna dig more into that because ISO standards and getting checking all the boxes is something that engers is working on because it's a pretty meaty document. Um, I was certified, uh, is not a requirement, but I don't know if that is the case across all industries. So, um, for the sake of not spreading misinformation, Um, I wanna do my due diligence before you quote me on that one, because that is a very good good question. Um, I hadn't thought about it that way before because there are a bunch of ISO standards out there for everything, including cybersecurity. So, I, I I've got your back because in the cybersecurity world, uh, it's nice to follow them and Oh, OK, so that OK, All right, but it's not mandatory in cybersecurity. Is that what I'm hearing in many industries. In many industries, it is not there. There are certainly OK slices with a like vou shout follow. But a lot of times people are like, Oh, we're aligned with these standards of like, What does a line mean? Well, we sort of follow what parts of it we want to follow. This is a really good conversation. Um, thank you for giving me that information because, you know, in the past, like I said it had been. My understanding that is so is voluntary. But knowing that there's an ISO standard for all kinds of different industries that don't necessarily have anything to do with one another, it's like, Well, can we paint it with a broad brush and say that it's all voluntary? It's like, Well, Raven, you really don't know. So thank you So So that that is, um, that's helpful to know. I know that in the world of sex toys, there are many things that you don't necessarily have to do, and there are a lot of manufacturers out there definitely store owners out there that are not aware of ISO standards and what they are let alone, you know, like how to follow them and things like that. So, yeah, that is very helpful to know. And I'm just going to apologise to all of my, you know, sex therapy, sex educator people right now for having even gone down this road because it occurs to me as I'm asking the question and listening to the answers that I don't even know what ISO stands for, Which means a good portion of my people probably don't either. And I suspect that I might have led them astray into the world of technology. Heaven for fun. Just remember, we can be heavy on the on the edits for whatever isn't working for you. Gosh, it's the International Standards organisation. Oh, that sounds so simple. No. Yeah, it is. And it's always the simplest ones that I seem to forget. Um, but, man, there are a lot of acronyms that are floating through my head in any given moment. And when you have two kids, uh, but yeah, um, ISO standards I don't think are I don't know by the general public. They're probably not very well understood. Certainly not by your average consumer. Um, it's a dry read the ISO standards. So This is not I mean, I'm Wolf. I'm sure you'll agree. Like, you know, your your everyday person probably isn't sitting down reading the ISO standards. Um, one of the things we need to do this year. We're actually gonna I wanna talk about this at our upcoming board meeting. Um, I believe that's this week. Yeah, that's this week talking about, you know, where we're at in being compliant with ISO standards. Um, because this is not something that you just do overnight, you know, like, um, you may have to There there are things that we did, um, like, once it was published, um, that we started doing to start getting in line. But I want to make it clear that, um, one does not just, like, flip a switch. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're compliant with everything in the document. You know it. You gotta go through your processes and what you produce with a fine tooth comb to make sure, um, that you are in compliance. Um, if that's what you're choosing to do, does that sound about right for your industry wolf? Yeah, 100%. And I think the the the point that I would pull out of that is this is gets back to safety. This gets back to quality. This gets back to, um these are devices that, you know, we want them to function as intended. So the the level of assurance, uh, is really what, uh, what this is all about, even though there's a lot of things within that standard that the the top line is Is this a quality product that we can rely on? And is this a safe product that we can use? Absolutely. Absolutely. I sometimes wonder I mean, this is not going to stop us in our pursuit of, um, making sure that we're ISO compliant. It's really important to me as an engineer, as it's important to my team as well. But I know that there are a lot of people out there that, you know, they're probably not gonna care. They're not gonna know what that means. If it's on the box, that's OK. Like that's OK. Um, there's a cluster of people out there that'll see that, and they'll be like, Yeah, cool. This makes me feel really good, but I think that there's an even bigger number of people out there have no idea what that means, and they don't really care, and they don't really care to learn and look it up, and and that's just fine. Those people are safe, too. So, yeah, we should be doing that because it's right. Uh, and not simply because, like, oh, well, you know, we wanna look more attractive and we wanna like it's the right thing to do, you know, like it's the right thing to do it. It is the right thing to do. But also I think of, you know, the the shops and the shop owners, especially a lot of the feminist shop owners. They do a lot of education. So, um, oftentimes when Stephanie is doing like a book signing or one of these events, I'm there to support her, which means I'm there standing for very long periods of time, doing nothing and which is fine. I just stand that I watched the the store and we were in one. I think it was medicine. Is that the right city? Love you at a woman's touch, which owned and operated by a sex therapist. Oh, OK, Wonderful. So what was fascinating about a woman's touch in Madison was that all along the walls, they had pamphlets and the the, um I'm gonna say sales staff, but they may have a better term, for it was very informed, like, Oh, by the way, here's what this means. You see this logo on this box? That's what that means. This particular measure means that this material means this other thing. This is safe for this use. This is meant for that use. And it was really set up. I thought in a very, um, educational friendly way. And I watched one guy very, very nervous. Come in. He's like, I just want to know What was that? I was wrong. And finally it came out that he was trying to get something for his wife, but he wasn't sure what, and they just put him right at ease. And like, here's a couple pamphlets. What? What is she into? What are you thinking about? And so what we've seen with like material sciences and and some of these small changes around making these toys more accessible and more safe, uh, trace back to having that store energy and having that, um, that educational component that I oftentimes see when I'm travelling with Stephanie. I agree with you. And I think that, um, you, you know, that's not uncommon. Uh, with, uh, small boutiques, especially boutiques that are, uh, woman owned people are more discerning as they should be. I feel like, um, those who get their sex toys from Amazon and from a from some of the bigger I won't name any names. Yeah, I'm not here to throw anybody under the bus, but there are certainly people out there that just kind of want to get whatever it is they're gonna get. They don't really want to talk about it. They don't want to ask questions. Um, they're operating under the assumption that of course, this is OK, Why wouldn't it be OK? And even if it's not OK, I'm not sure that I want to talk about it. Um, there are a lot of fantastic small, independent boutiques out there that really, really do care about the products that they carry. And they really do care about educating their store associates, and it shows. It shows it shows in the, uh as you mentioned, the literature that you see in the store. It shows, um, from how the associate interacts with the client and even shows by, like, the the brands that they carry for a lot of people, they don't necessarily care about the educational piece because it takes time. It it takes time to learn these things. It takes time to get to know a brand, get to know their products. What makes this product better than a different product, that sort of thing. So, um so, yeah. I mean, I I'm not coming down on anybody because they're not familiar with I, so I don't expect anybody to be. I'm an engineer. So So, you know, it's like walking into walking into a place and expecting somebody to to know that that's an integral sign in the Enduro logo. Like most people don't know that. I know that other math math nerds know that it's for me. It's, you know, I think it's fun. But what matters is the discernment. You know, the the discernment and the attention to detail that people do show, um, in whatever way they choose to show it. So where did you say the shop was again? Madison. A woman's touch in Madison OK, I'll have to look them up. I'll have to check them. They are phenomenal. Ellen is, um, an icon in the sex therapy world. One of the first sort of like feminist in the bookstore sex shop, sort of owners, amazing space to hang out. Yeah, and it feels, um, very much unlike any other sort of shop that you go into, especially the more chain ones where, you know, it's all very like neon and glaring. This is very soft. They have nice music. It's a very welcoming space. It doesn't feel like a porn shop, which is really nice for the uncomfortable men trying to shop for their wives. But this does make, you know, raise a question for me. Which is how does a self described math nerd end up in the sex tech business? Oh, gosh, that's really easy. I was doing I was doing sex toy parties in a graduate school. Um, that's the That's the very simple a bridge version. So, um, but really, you know, I was raised in a sex positive house, you know, my mom was raising me to be sex positive. Um, before there was a word for sex positivity before we were having conversations about pronouns and intersectionality. Um, I was like, I don't know. I remember my friends asking me all the questions about sex. Um, because I always seem to know. And I did know because my mom was answering my questions. So I always credit her, um, for me being that person at my core. But, um, fast forward to grad school. I'm a student at CU Boulder, and, um, I just finished my first degree. I have a bachelor's in architectural engineering, uh, with an emphasis in structural engineering, And I was getting ready to start my master's degree in civil engineering also with an emphasis in structural engineering. And I went to a sex toy party and I had a really, really good a really, really good time. I had a lot of fun. Um, I spent money that I didn't have. It was cool. Um, and I wasn't really interested in throwing a party of my own. I was really fascinated by how much business the consultant was doing. It seemed like she was having a lot of fun. Everybody was spending money. I'm like, man, I like money too, and I've been to plenty of things like that, you know, candles and purses. I mean, this was back in, um, 2008. So social Media wasn't quite what it is now. Like it. The technology had had not gotten there. So it was a lot of like your standard makeup parties, purse parties, like before. Um, before the market became really, really, really saturated with, you know, that type of thing. Um, but anyway, I went and had a great time, and, uh, I decided I wanted to do that. I'm like this. I That sounds really cool. I had never had any interest in, um, selling makeup or candles or whatever was available at the time. But sex toys? Yeah, I will. Uh, yeah. Absolutely. Um, So I started doing that, and, uh, I figured that I would do that. Um, just through my graduate studies, you know, make some extra money. Um, I was doing that at night and on weekends. I was interning during the day. I was going to class, and I was having a really good time. Uh, but then I discovered that I was really good at it. Um, I didn't know that I'd gotten the family entrepreneurial gene. But I did. I had no clue. Like entrepreneurship runs in my family, and I didn't think I got it. But I did get it, and I had no idea I'd be good at sales. Now, when it came to, um Oh, you know, you've got to recruit a team and have a downline and blah blah, blah, blah blah. Um, it it wasn't for me. Like it. It wasn't that part wasn't for me, but, man, I could boost some product like I was really good at selling dildos. I was really good at selling lotions and potions like and after a while, like I got a reputation. Like, you know, people start calling me asking, like, can you do my party? And if I wasn't available, um, they would change their date. They they didn't want somebody else doing their party. So I did that for, um, like a decade I. I thought I was just going to do that through graduate school. Um, but I continue to do it even when I got my big girl job. And I'm working, as you know, working as an engineer, you know, growing my engineering engineering career. Um, I'm still doing parties at night on the weekends, and I'm like, Well, work over here as an engineer and do sex toy parties, and then I'll have all the money, and that was a lot of fun. Um, and it was cool until it wasn't. I became disillusioned both with my engineering career in the corporate world and my career, as you would call it, Um, in the world of direct sales and, uh, really, like, the thing that really ties the two together is like I. I could do this better myself, in the case of, um, my engineering career, Um, I was just not really impressed with the glass ceiling. The corporate ladder is not built for me. Um, it was just, you know, it just so many inequities. Um, you know, the world of engineering and construction. It's really not built for mothers. It's not built for women. It's certainly not built for black women, and it shows. And I was experiencing that the further and further I progressed in my career on the direct sales site, I was really put off by the lack of inclusivity and the lack of real education So, for example, 50 shades of grey comes out 50 shades of grey. Um, and all of a sudden there's training being offered to the consultants, you know, 50 shades of grey training. This is how you offer a 50 shades party, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And it really wasn't about like we know. We know that that's not about healthy. B DS M. You know, this is not a how to guide about B DS M like this is like, you know, I'm not really worried about anybody being pissed off like we've all been talking about it. And so the training that was being offered to the consultants really wasn't It wasn't educational. It was about how to sell the novelty grey tie and the branded nipple clamps. Things like that. So, you know, my response is like, Well, I'll, I'll do a kink 101 party. But I'm not gonna do a a 50 shades, But just things like that, um, the marketing back then and again, this was like, you know, in the in the very in the early OTs where, you know, approaching 2020 through Sorry. Like this was the early OTs through, um, you know, into the teens. But, um, no inclusivity in the marking. Very in the marketing, Very sis. He white heteronormative like just, you know, it. It just we weren't having the conversations that we are now, um, and, uh, and not to mention, this is like the big part that really threw me off. Um, the products being offered were not quality. And when I started noticing that some of the products seem to be all right and other products, you know, were just weird, they broke easily. Things like that. Um, I started, you know, doing some digging on my own and, you know, seeing what experiences other people had had. Um and that's when I started learning about toxic sex, toy materials, toxic materials and motors that break and I'm like, This is ridiculous. But of course, this isn't really something that you learn about when you're a consultant. Repping a bigger company like that's not because it's not. It's about, you know. And so I came to this conclusion of Well, I'm an engineer and I like sex. I bet I could do this better myself. Like I. I bet I could. I bet I could start a company, um, and get people to care. And, uh and I did. At least it appears that I So so, Yeah, it's been It's been a really wild ride. Um uh, my life as a sex toy sales lady. Um, and as an engineer, like, they ran in parallel for a long time. But, you know, they were getting closer and closer and closer until they intersected. Um, is really what happened? So, um yeah, that's the That's the story. Those parallel lines running closer and closer is what has convinced me that I'm gonna wake up one day and Stephanie is gonna have a career in cyber security. This is This is happening. I can see it. I can see it. She's going there. No, but you know, don't be shocked. Don't be shocked, I. I wanna pull on one thread that you said earlier, because when I when I coach and mentor, I oftentimes point to a pattern that I noticed when I used to hire people, they'd be like, I ran a conference. I spoke out of these places. I contributed open source code. I built all this stuff and there'd be a five year gap and consistently, that five year gap was, um we had a kid, and, um, we realised that jumping from job to job and and contributing burning long hours and everything wasn't consistent with being a good parent in those early years. And so oftentimes, when I'm when I'm coaching something, I'm like, you know, we all wanna be a parent. But remember that when that happens, like for five years, just put your career on hold a little bit and and ride where you're at so that you can be there for your kid. And so I was shocked when you were like, Oh, yeah. So I had a little little baby and I'm like, You know what? Now is the time to start a company. How How did you balance those two? That that's so hard. I mean, I guess it depends on on what you feel is hard. I mean, hard for me was crying on Sunday night because I had to be at work on Monday morning like it just I truly wore some heavy golden handcuffs. I. I was making a lot of money, and collectively my husband and I were making a lot of money. Um, but when I came back from my maternity leave and, you know, like, in order to understand what I'm about to say next, uh, you have to know that I was a structural engineer in the oil and gas industry, So I came back from my maternity leave, and the price of oil was not great. And so all of my projects were on hold. There was nothing. There wasn't anything to do. So that was like, the first thing that just it was awful. Like I was going to work to do nothing, right, Like And of course, this is every teenager's dream. You know, I wanna get a high paying job and I wanna sit around. I wanna do nothing. It sucks like it's not for me. Maybe some people more power to you. If that is, um, your jam, it really wasn't. I wasn't using my brain. I was really upset because, you know, I had to deal with, you know, my son's in daycare, you know, and meanwhile, I'm at work. There's nothing to do. And this isn't the fault of the company. Of course, it's the way that you know it's the industry and the economy. But I'm not even using my brain. I'm not even I'm sitting on overhead. And that's really where I was like, Well, you know, I should start that thing that I've been thinking about, cause I really got the call, if that's what you wanna call it of doing big air quotes for the sake of the podcast. But I got the call to, you know, do something about a year and a half, two years before I actually found it. Enduro. So So, yeah, I was I was a new mom because I didn't have anything to do at work. Like I'm not at home taking care of the baby. I'm at work making money, but I'm not doing anything at work. I'm sitting at overhead on overhead, after the price of oil increased and projects were back on, it didn't get any easier for me. I'll spare you the gory details, but and it became very, very clear to me that this was just, um it wasn't a good place for me to work. It wasn't a place where I was gonna progress. Um, I really thought that cause I quit my job I quit my job not to run in juros full time, but to take a break. Big air quotes take a break and take a breath and then get another position. That's what I thought. What ended up happening was I ended up here. I ended up running in GS full time. I got to a point in my life where it's like, I wanna be happy, you know? And when I left my job, uh, and I was working on Enduro its in my spare time because I was home I. I was taking a break. I'm like, I'm not ready to go back to work. I'll take a break and then I'll go back to work. I'll find another position. And when I had the opportunity to be at home and be with my son and the only other thing that I was working on was engeron, its amazing things started happening, and it occurred to me like, Well, what if I do this full time? What is what if this is what I did? So, um, it hasn't always been easy. Like I have two kids. I have an eight year old and I have a five year old. Um, On top of that, they have extracurriculars like we all do. Martial arts. As a family, I have one who does dance. I have one that does soccer. Um, I like to go to crossfit in the morning. Like, you know, I have a full schedule, how and and that can be challenging. But none of it is nearly as challenging as forcing myself to go grind and work for a paycheck at the cost of my sanity and the cost of my happiness. That was very it was very, very difficult for me, you know? But yeah, you're right. Raising kids in in in and of itself is, um is, uh, it it is difficult doing that when you're running a business, but I make it work. I make it work. It brings me a lot of happiness. You know, I'm happy to, um, find ways to make my life work. It brings me a lot of joy. One of the things that got me interested in sexual health actually was the fact that I was parenting because not I was curious about where the babies were coming from, but because I was also in my early twenties and frequently invited to those very sort of sex toy parties that you were describing and some of the more toxic chemicals that I first heard about I heard about in the context of baby toys of the like palates, the the substances that would make things soft and squishy for babies to chew on. Right around the time my son was a toddler and chewing on everything became a big buzzword of, you know, we need to be aware of this. We need to be thinking about it. And so I was going to my friend's sex toy parties, and I was asking, The salesperson will do your toys, have daylights in them and they would look at me and go. I don't know what that is, and that was really frustrating for me because often the sales people were handing me business cards that said they were sexuality educators. And you know, later in my career as I progressed and as I you know, pursued my own sexuality, education and certification, I'm like, 00, there's You know, there's the folks like Ellen that run a women's touch who are certified sex educators. And then there's the dildo Home Party MLM sort of system that are calling themselves sex educators but can't tell me if the toys have daylights in them. You touched on a really important point. Yes, it was my experience trying to be discerning in my kids toys that made me much more aware of my toys. That makes perfect sense. I mean, as you know, when you become a parent, everything changes. And I know that's like the cliche thing that people wanna say, but it really, really is true, and it makes you more. It makes you more aware you're acutely aware of things that maybe you wouldn't have paid attention to. Otherwise. That piece that you said about, you know, the MLM consultants, you know, sex experts as as opposed to actual experts. That's spot on. That's absolutely true. Um, I'm waiting. I'm waiting for the Netflix special, like I'm waiting for it to come out. I think it it needs to happen. Um, because, as I said previously, um, you know, the training, the training, big air quotes that consultants would get it really wasn't training. Um, it was sales training, which sales training is great. We offer our our our, um, stores that carry us sales training. Um, that's important. Um, but knowing about the product, uh, and knowing about it because you care about the ingredients about the brand about your your customers, that's really important, too. So, yeah, you touched on a big piece? Um, one of the things that brings me a lot of joy, um, here at Engers is because I honestly, when it comes to to molecular type stuff in formulation, that's not me. This is why, uh, we have our formulation, specialist. That's why we have our chemical engineer. Um, you know, we work together as a team, uh, to make sure that all of our bases are covered. So, um, but yeah, I hear you. That makes perfect sense. I mean, my mom heart like leaps for joy at that because we certainly care about what our babies are consuming, like even now. Like, I I'm I'll be 38 next month and my mom still cares about You know, what I'm eating and what I'm consuming and everything like Are you all right? Um, so, no, that's not so strange. Um, it's not strange at all, and it doesn't shock me that, um when we become mothers, I feel like we we get birthed into another phase of life, and we never know it. Sometimes it might be entrepreneurship, but it might be. It's just like this other phase of life where we're really just like, getting our asses into high gear, and we're we're we're we're fixing our BS, and we're doing our work because we have this little life and oh, it's showtime. Like I better care about what's in my food. I better care what's in in my toys and and, you know, and you gotta care about your health, too, because, you know, I don't wanna check out at 50. You know, I didn't start working with, um, a nutritionist until just a few years ago. I didn't start really paying attention to the numbers on my blood work until just a few years ago. But it matters, especially when you're in your thirties like me. And you're losing people like I've lost two friends. They were both thir 37 years old within the last six months of each other, and they left little behind. It shouldn't be that way. So, I, I think, uh, Stephanie like, Yeah, I I that that's a perfect you know, the intersection of, um, significant change and significant discernment and parenthood. Yeah, spot on. Absolutely. Which then begs the question. How did you decide what toys you wanted to make? How did you decide what products needed to be out there? How did you get from the MLM sort of mind? Not mindset, but approach to product and where you are now with angers. Sure, that's a great question. So the thing and I I'm gonna I'm gonna make a lot of people mad, but whatever. Um, the first thing that I wanted to accomplish is I really wanted to own my own business. And when you're a consultant, you don't you you you you do not You do not, um, come at me people. But it it's it's a it's a fact. And here's why. Um, there was a time when I was working in direct sales, um, MM where I had a very, very, uh, popular product, and I sold it like gangbusters. And it would have been a really amazing product if it were better built, better designed, but the bullet it included a bullet. Um it kept breaking. And so I reached out to the home office and I said, Hey, I got six clients here. All of their bullets broke, like, what can we do? And they said, Well, send them back. Like, you know, submit a AR MA return my return material authorization, uh, send it back, uh, and we'll replace it. And so I did. And sure enough, there was like lemons in that batch. I mean, it just kept going and going. And why is that? Because, um, they are designed the same. They're made the same with the same quality. Same standards, if you call them that. And, um And so I reached out again. I'm like, isn't there anything more that we can do? Like, uh, can you, like, get with the manufacturer? Like, if you happen to be, be be manufacturing these, like, is there something that we can do? And there really wasn't like the only option was, you know, send it back, send it back. It's like, Well, I'm not gonna send back this this subpar product to get more subpar product. Um and so when you're a consultant, you don't sit at that board table you don't own equity like you don't have any say as to what goes in the catalogue or where you're so sourcing those products from you do. If you own the company, though, So it's like, Well, if I If it's my company and it's my show, then you know I can do whatever I want, you know? So that's the first thing. The second thing you gotta understand about uh, engineered erotics is that we support well engineered, well designed intimacy, devices and all of their forms. And so the first form and admittedly, when I started the company, this is where I thought I was gonna start with concept to market. So invention and I, you know, and I still have all these. Really, I think they're awesome ideas, but I'm like, Yeah, I wanna do this and I wanna do that and I wanna do this. And that's where most people assume that, um, companies like mine come from and they can. But here's the thing about concept to market. You've got to have a lot of time, a lot of tenacity, a lot of money, more time, more tenacity, even more money. And then you got a prototype and put more money into the next prototype and money and money and money and money. And you better have a connection. And you better know rich investors. And you better be ready to, like, you know, sacrifice your equity. And it goes on and on and on. And as I started learning more about that, I'm like, Well, damn, I wanna make money, like, yesterday. Like, what else can I do? I don't know Any rich people. I don't know. Rich investors like this is gonna take forever, and it often can. And so I started with what I know, which is engineering. Um, I started with what I knew about internal engineering, and the question then became, Well, can we take a fundamental design that people are already familiar with? Um, and change it so that it outperforms the competitors. And, you know, the answer is always Yes. I mean, you know all about sex toys. You've seen what's offered out there. There's really, like, we're seeing some new stuff pop up. Yeah, but, you know, like, what gets bought a lot. You know, your your bullets, your wands, your plugs, like, you know, the things that are familiar to people, Um, that make people comfortable. Now, that's not to knock the more innovative designs, you know, that are, you know, but people that are new and they're like, this is my first time. Like, you know, they they're probably not gonna start with the, you know, the the creme de la creme of design. You know, they they want something like, you know, let me just ease on in there. And so when I started the company, it's like, Well, you know, really, all we need is to make sure that, you know, these internals are sound, that they're well connected, that they're made of good materials. We gotta make sure that the exterior is made of quality material, nothing porous. You know, something that's easy to clean, something that's hygienic, Um, something that's gonna be compatible with your favourite lubricant. You know, very simple things. Um, and unfortunately, you know, there are a lot of products on the market that you know are just made out of, you know, crappy materials, and it shows that they don't last very long. And so, um, the analogy I like to give is, you know, cars. You know a car is a car is a car, you know, all day, every day. But we're not driving around in model TS. You know, we now have Teslas, obviously, but the the fundamental design, it's the same. The function is the same. So the invention has not changed, but the engineering has, and the engineering has become more refined. And that's where I started. Engine engineer neurotics at It's like Well, I just wanna make good products. So we had started initially with working with factories and saying, Hey, you know, we wanna bring on a bullet. Um, we want to know about the internals and we want to tweak it a bit. We want to adjust it a bit so that we know that it's going to work Well, like we want to change this material. We want to change this button and do that, Um, the third way that, uh and this was a very happy discovery because I didn't even know that this was going to happen. Um, the further we got into our journey, um, I found that there are factories that started pitching us like there are factories out there and of course, you know they're gonna have an R and D department. They essentially have, you know, a bigger, much better funded version of engers in house. And what do they do? They sit around and they design and they come up with different concepts and and this sort of thing, and, uh and then they come looking for people like me like, Hey, like, this is what we do. This is what we're creating over here. What do you think? Would you like to give us a home with your brand? And that was really cool, because now all of a sudden, my inbox and my D MS were getting inundated by other people wanting me to wanting me to look at their work and what their factory was designing and creating. And a lot of people don't know that that can be the case either. But here's the thing about running a company about being the CEO. You can't we you cannot quite possibly have all of the ideas like there's so many people out there that think that being the CEO is like I thought of everything or being the founder is like everything was my idea. I take credit for all of it. It's not possible. It's not possible. Um, a wise business owner is going to take input from wherever it comes. And I wasn't looking for it. It came and found me. So that third piece is how we launched a Demi vibe shroom and our Kegel Cherries. And as I got familiar, uh, with this, uh, this particular factory, um one of their questions was was Well, you know, what are you thinking? Because we were, like, on the we we were done with the the first product that we launched. It's no longer on the website, you know, we were looking for other designs. Um, see, what else is out there. I mean, what's the point of trying to think it up yourself if somebody else has already thought of it? I. I mean, you, you know. And so, uh, one of the things that we really wanted to try was a gender neutral design, But admittedly, I didn't know what that looked like yet I knew what appealed to me as a a cisgender heterosexual woman. Um, I. I know what I like, but, you know, like, I didn't really have a lot of experience with gender neutral toys. And so I was kind of getting familiar with that. And in talking with this particular factory, they showed me a few things, and one of those was shroom. And I was like, This is brilliant. Send me samples. Um, and they did. And I'm really impressed. I was impressed. Then I'm still impressed. Now, um, giving, giving them, um, what am I trying to say? Taking them for a test drive, but not in the way that you would think, like, you know, dropping them on the floor, dunking them in a sink of water. You know, like, really putting this, You know, this creation through the ringer, you know, really seeing, like, what is this made out of like, Can I break it like, you know, what do you do? Like, you know, is this gonna break? Um, I realised that, you know, these are really, really well made, and yeah, I think that this is something that gerontic should support. So, um, all of that to say that No, I didn't start the product line by, uh, pouring silicone in my garage. Like there are a lot of people that there are people that think that, um, no, no. Like that. That's not the case. Um, and certainly concept to market is something we still wanna do. Uh, but we're bootstrapped. We're not VC funded, and I'm not quite ready to go down that path, But sticking with the path of modifying internals, adjusting internals, adjusting ex external materials, um, button accessibility, things like that. Very simple things that I think that a lot of people III I hate to say that people overlook it, but a lot of people do because, you know, they're looking for these big, bold grand. Oh, the world's never seen this before. Um, but simple engineering, simple refinement, simple iteration gets you Miles, um, in your journey. So, yeah, that's how we approach that. And it's been wonderful. Yeah, as you're talking about that I think about, you know, the design thinking process and how much simple, thoughtful iterations of existing products can improve. Just about everything we use, right, So that, uh, that makes so much sense to me. Absolutely. I. I think that, um a lot of people don't realise that simplicity really is a good thing. I mean, I, I think in the world of sex tech. What is expected is and and there's nothing wrong with this, there's nothing wrong with, uh, app toys. There's nothing wrong with Tel ail donnis. There's nothing wrong with are or anything like that. Um, me. I'm really simple, though, in the respect that I really don't wanna have to fuss around with, you know, getting making sure my app is up and running like I just want a well made something or other. I can just grab the get it out of the drawer and turn it on and go to town. And I think a lot of people, um, don't realise that there's a difference between the engineer and the inventor. Oftentimes the inventor needs the engineer. Sometimes they're the same person. Sometimes they're the same person. Um, but there's a lot that goes into hey, I have an idea and actually bringing it to market. And so my own impatience and my pursuit of making that for sale like I wanted to find that figure out a better way. And so Jimmy Vibe sells well. Uh, Shroom sells very well, and it's really reaffirming because, um, fancier is cool, but it's not necessarily the end all be all. Sometimes what people need is just something that is well designed, easy to clean. It's hygienic. It's gonna work for longer than six months. Um, sometimes that's all you need. Like there's a lot of, um, reward and simplicity. You know, as you're saying that the other thing that comes to mind is there's such a power in brand, right? There's the the bra brand will forever be, you know, etched in my mind because of Dita rams and all the quality of it. The the, um company you're setting up and the vision you've outlaid in this podcast just really screams good brand to me and good design. Uh, which reminds me. I know we've hinted at it at the beginning You mentioned in the middle. But I do wanna ask you you were on television, right? Or your your episodes about to air it Did it already aired? You can go watch it after you're done here. If you want. So tell Tell us about sex cells in that process. What was that like? It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. If I'm being completely honest, I was running on fumes that day. Uh, but it was a lot of fun. Um, I did not for a second I. I didn't think I was gonna be able to do the show. Um, and that's because, uh, my daughter had been in the hospital just a few days prior. I was going to, um the day I was supposed to fly out, um, was my daughter was in the hospital is what I'm trying to say. Um, the day before I was supposed to leave is when I emailed the producers, telling them I wasn't going to be able to make it. So, um, thankfully, she was discharged. All was well, and everything was stable at home and with her, and, uh, and I let you know, the producers asked me, they were so kind. They're just wonderful kind, uh, genuine people. I really appreciate them. Um, but, you know, I gave them the real I'm like, this is what's going on and thank you for the opportunity. And they said, Well, you know, please keep us posted. We hope all will be well, and, uh, I sent them an email saying, Hey, everything's good. I hope you guys had a great shoot. Um, wish I could have been there to be there with y'all, that everything's good here at home. And they still invited me out. They said, we still want you in this episode if you are still willing to come. And, uh So I went out and it really was a great experience. I say I was running on fumes because, um, the events of the previous days were just so taxing. I mean, having a child in the hospital is no joke. Um, it's terrible. It's emotionally draining. And so I was still, you know, trying to recover from that. Um, but it really was a fantastic experience. Um, I still can't believe it happened, but it did it. It did happen. It happened. And the episode aired. Um, this past Wednesday, it is Season three, Episode six So and and it's on the fuse, fuse and fuse. Plus, is the network that you'll find that on. So everyone should go check that out. Where where else can they find out about what's new and upcoming for you, And and for, uh, your company, uh, joining the newsletter? It's a monthly newsletter. Um, and it's accompanied by a monthly blog that we publish. And there's a lot of great educational stuff in there, and you'll see whatever announcements we have to make. The other way is by joining the Engers community on Facebook. It is a private Facebook group not to be confused with the Facebook page that you can like, Um, the Facebook Group is where the heart and soul of the company lives and breathes. So rather than interacting with engers, the company you're interacting with, the people that happen to make up the company so you can be a part of the group and tag me, uh, and ask me questions directly. You can ask our other team members questions directly. Um, if you have questions about products, if you have any concerns, that sort of thing. A lot of people don't realise that Gerontic is a user driven company and a lot of the things that are on sale today that are available on our website um, they came from feedback out of that group. So it is a really good place, um, to be if you have an idea or if you just enjoy sex memes because we post a lot of those in there, and everybody likes laughing about sex. I know. I sure do. Uh, but those are the two best ways. Um I mean, we're on instagram. We're on facebook, We're on Twitter. Um, but if you really want to know the latest and greatest as it happens, the newsletter and the Facebook Facebook group are my two recommendations. I am so excited that you took time out of your day to come and talk to us about your passion for sex, toy safety, your business, your thoughtful intentionality behind everything that you've done. This has been really just enjoyable for me. One of my favourite conversations, I think we've had Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's Monday, so I like barely have it together today, So that means that means a lot. Well, this is a great way to start a Monday, and we post our episodes on Sundays, Which means for some people, this conversation will be how they start their Monday too. And how great is that? That is wonderful. That is wonderful. Yeah, Raven, thank you so much. And, uh, to those listening. Thanks for tuning into securing sexuality, Your source of information you need to protect yourself and your relationships. Securing sexuality is brought to you by the Bound Together Foundation a 501 C three nonprofit From the bedroom to the cloud. We're here to help you navigate what safe sex looks like in a digital age. Be sure to check out our website, securing sexual.com for links to more information about the topics we discussed here today as well as our live events and join us again for more fascinating conversations about the intersection of intimacy and technology. Have a great week. 
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